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  #46  
Old 08 Jan 12, 01:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
So what? Does it entitle the US to act as an obnoxious t**t, self-righteously lecturing Russia off a high horse?
Actually, what started this was a Russian leader doing exactly that to America.
AGAIN.

When was the last time Obama made a speech about how terrible Russia's human rights record is?
He is the one that is being criticized by the Russians in this way, ain't he?
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  #47  
Old 08 Jan 12, 02:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Er..yes..sorry about that, John. Putin, speaking about McCain, is stating that he suspects McCain may have gotten a screw loose while he was holed up in the Hanoi Hilton.
Now isn't that sweet?
Did Putin ever have anything good to say about any American?
one that isn't a communist, I mean.
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  #48  
Old 08 Jan 12, 02:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfinbird View Post
SIXTY MILLION?? I think they got him confused with someone else
Yup, wrong communist.
Same era, similar end results, and each one did about as much good for their own and all other peoples.
The complete and utter annihilation of all social institutions, social identity, anything that people have to think about, talk about ... all converted by force into Communist apparatus.
And kept that way, generation after generation.

This is why Russians automatically equate anti-communism with anti-Russianism... or whatever you'd call it. Its the dominant facet, if not the only one, in their self-image.

I am glad that Eastern Europe is different, might have something to do with the fact that there were still a few people still alive that remembered what life before communism was like there when it collapsed.

And it always will collapse.
It doesn't work.
It never will work.
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  #49  
Old 08 Jan 12, 02:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
I think communism was a horrible thing whose first victim was Russia and the Russian people.

Russia's neighbors would have disliked Russia anyway (because Russia was an empire in expansion and so on), but communism severely aggravated that dislike. Because Russia controlled by communists didn't simply rearrange territories and borders like a 19th century imperial power, it also took a very active and brutal role in gutting the societies of its neighbors along class-war lines.

Ruling for so many decades, the communists became an integral part of Russia's history, and attacking them seems to be an attack on Russia itself, however that history has a completely different (and not nice) meaning for others.

So if someone bashes the communists it doesn't necessarily mean he bashes Russia.
Indeed.
I just tried to reinforce that point, but just watch what happens now...
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  #50  
Old 08 Jan 12, 06:36
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Quote:
Yup, wrong communist.
Same era, similar end results, and each one did about as much good for their own and all other peoples.
The complete and utter annihilation of all social institutions, social identity, anything that people have to think about, talk about ... all converted by force into Communist apparatus.
And kept that way, generation after generation.
If you want to talk about intellectual zombies look at yourself. Facts were presented to you thousands of times but you prefer to stay in your hatred and paranoia. You had only a twisted knowledge of the most dark sides of the regime but nothing concerning the positive side who was more important than the negative one.


Quote:
This is why Russians automatically equate anti-communism with anti-Russianism... or whatever you'd call it. Its the dominant facet, if not the only one, in their self-image.
70 years is a part of their lifes and for many of them it was the biggest and the best part of the life. It was also the time of the greatests achievements in the Russian history. I wonder what your opinion will be if someone will claim that everything that happened in USA from 1920 to 1990 was just an error and you must forgot about.

Quote:
I am glad that Eastern Europe is different, might have something to do with the fact that there were still a few people still alive that remembered what life before communism was like there when it collapsed.
http://romaniantimes.at/?id=12321

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...89-berlin-wall

And many people still remember the life under communism and have regrets or at least nostalgia about it.


Quote:
And it always will collapse.
It doesn't work.
It never will work.
Simply because it never existed. What existed in the so-called "communist" countries was socialism in one or another form. Real "communism" never existed in any country.
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  #51  
Old 08 Jan 12, 13:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
If you want to talk about intellectual zombies look at yourself. Facts were presented to you thousands of times but you prefer to stay in your hatred and paranoia. You had only a twisted knowledge of the most dark sides of the regime but nothing concerning the positive side who was more important than the negative one.
Positive aspects?
So, killing millions was okay because the regime brought in factories that produced lots of shiny things, the materialism comes before the value of human life and freedom?
Odd, lots of western countries made huge strides forward in the 1920, and 30s without purges, repression, mass-executions and secret police.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
70 years is a part of their lifes and for many of them it was the biggest and the best part of the life. It was also the time of the greatests achievements in the Russian history. I wonder what your opinion will be if someone will claim that everything that happened in USA from 1920 to 1990 was just an error and you must forgot about.
I would learn to differentiate between the accomplishments of the people (which were considerable) and the drawbacks of the system that was in place.
We here in the US do, haven't you ever seen how critical we are of our own Government in the Politics Central board of this site?

Go ahead, keep listening to Putin and the rest of the ex-Communist Party big-shots... and how they want the good-old days to come back for reasons that should be obvious when you consider what kind of people they are.
Russia should have had a proper revolution in 1991, and killed the bastards who had been the top-level Dictators for so long,,, instead of letting them just walk away with control of the infrastructure and factories.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/08/1989-berlin-wall
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post

And many people still remember the life under communism and have regrets or at least nostalgia about it.
Yeah, the people who were getting a free ride all those years.
Love that article from the East-German wench, who moans about what unification cost East Germany (I guess the West Germans didn't have to pay a cent or sacrifice anything at all). And how so many teachers that only knew how to teach worthless communist dogma lost their jobs, oh the horror!
Please... I was in Berlin in 1991, there was a Cop standing on every intersection downtown in East Berlin. There was not even close to being enough crime to justify such a Police presence ... unless you include potential political crime in those calculations.
Political crimes such as people gathering in groups more than 3, people talking about the wrong things, people selling things to each other without begging the state for permission, that sort of thing.
And they were still there in 1991 because the West Germans, who were now paying for them, didn't know what to do with them and didn't have the heart to fire them, yet.
Teachers who's only talent was the swallowing and regurgitation of Communist propaganda had plenty of warning, and should have been ready to move on to something else when the time came.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Simply because it never existed. What existed in the so-called "communist" countries was socialism in one or another form. Real "communism" never existed in any country.
Really?
Nicaragua, Cuba, Albania, Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambique, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Yugoslavia, The USSR, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia... and that's just from memory.

If not a single one of those countries was ever able to achieve "true" communism, doesn't that indicate that it can't be done?!?!

Seriously , you sound like some member of the Spanish Inquisition 600 years ago, raving that there were no "true" Christians.
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  #52  
Old 08 Jan 12, 13:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Now isn't that sweet?
Did Putin ever have anything good to say about any American?
one that isn't a communist, I mean.
Maybe you should develop a paranoia about what the media tells you about Russia? Worked for me... took me a second to think off this for example:

Quote:
arry King: Mr Prime Minister, I thank you so much and look forward to seeing you again soon on your soil. Vladimir Putin: Larry, please do come to Moscow. I’d love to see you. You’ve never been to Moscow, and I’m sure you will like it here.
Larry King: I thank you again so much, Vladimir Putin, prime minister of Russia. Thank you.
Vladimir Putin:Can I ask a question? I’m not sure why, but the king is leaving us. There are many gifted and interesting people working in the American media, but there is only one King. I’m not asking why he’s leaving us, but I want to know when we will be able to say, “Long Live the King!”? When will there be another figure as popular around the world as you are?
Larry King: Thank you. I have no answer.
Vladimir Putin: Thank you very much.
Larry King: Thank you. I'll see you next year.
Vladimir Putin: Goodbye.
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  #53  
Old 08 Jan 12, 13:32
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Quote:
Go ahead, keep listening to Putin and the rest of the ex-Communist Party big-shots... and how they want the good-old days to come back for reasons that should be obvious when you consider what kind of people they are.
Putin was never a commie big-shot... And Emtos is probably way more hostile towards Putin then for example I am.
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  #54  
Old 08 Jan 12, 14:49
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Quote:
Positive aspects?
So, killing millions was okay because the regime brought in factories that produced lots of shiny things, the materialism comes before the value of human life and freedom?

Millions ? Around 700 000 were shot by Stalin. Not look like millions for me.

From the scientific point of view a human is 70% of water and the rest is shared by lipids, proteins and so on. Before speaking about freedom and the value of human life, think about the aspect I pointed.

If you forget this I wll point you that in the 50-60 the life expectancy in SU was at the level of the West, with free medecine, free education, granted work, granted place to live, leading positions in science and military.


Quote:
Odd, lots of western countries made huge strides forward in the 1920, and 30s without purges, repression, mass-executions and secret police.
Like great depression and millions of people waiting for popular soup ? To this you forgot to add that those Western countries had at their orders colonies and huge industries. Read more about the life of people in colonies, huge famines in India and the conditions of work in the 19th century. USSR only did what everybody else did but only 50 years later. But it's not their fault.


Quote:
I would learn to differentiate between the accomplishments of the people (which were considerable) and the drawbacks of the system that was in place.
We here in the US do, haven't you ever seen how critical we are of our own Government in the Politics Central board of this site?
People who lived in the Tsarist Russia and who live in Russia now are not different from those who lived in USSR. For some reasons the first two were unable to do what USSR did.

Political central board can be resumed like this :
-It's all Obama's fault !
-Islamist invading us !
-Who will be the chosen one from GOP ?

Not really productive at my opinion. You can find exactly the same at any Russian political forum.


Quote:
Go ahead, keep listening to Putin and the rest of the ex-Communist Party big-shots... and how they want the good-old days to come back for reasons that should be obvious when you consider what kind of people they are.
Russia should have had a proper revolution in 1991, and killed the bastards who had been the top-level Dictators for so long,,, instead of letting them just walk away with control of the infrastructure and factories.
1. Putin was not a party big shot. He was just a colonel.
2. If you din't seen I'm certainly not a fan of Putin.
3. Putin does anything to have good old days come back. If he wanted so all oligarchs will be alredy shot as enemies of the people.

Russia had a revolution in 1991. When herd turns, the lame sheeps take the head. Taking the control of infrastructure and factories is a result of privatization and free market. And kill people isn't really democratic and not respectful of human life. Oops I forgot Gaddafi and Saddam. After all kill people in the name of democracy is ok.


Quote:
Yeah, the people who were getting a free ride all those years.
Love that article from the East-German wench, who moans about what unification cost East Germany (I guess the West Germans didn't have to pay a cent or sacrifice anything at all). And how so many teachers that only knew how to teach worthless communist dogma lost their jobs, oh the horror!
Please... I was in Berlin in 1991, there was a Cop standing on every intersection downtown in East Berlin. There was not even close to being enough crime to justify such a Police presence ... unless you include potential political crime in those calculations.
Political crimes such as people gathering in groups more than 3, people talking about the wrong things, people selling things to each other without begging the state for permission, that sort of thing.
And they were still there in 1991 because the West Germans, who were now paying for them, didn't know what to do with them and didn't have the heart to fire them, yet.
Teachers who's only talent was the swallowing and regurgitation of Communist propaganda had plenty of warning, and should have been ready to move on to something else when the time came.
So the teachers were traching propaganda only ?
I remember the time when my uncle get his salary with the fridges after the break-up of USSR. In Soviet Russia the heroes were miner Stakhanov, cosmonaut Gagarin and soldier Matrosov. Today their place are taken by show-biz stars and another trash of the evolution.


Second link was already posted in discussion about Democracy and Capitalism in the former SU.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/11/02/...eservations/1/

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/...-soviet-union/

Read this and answer me why the number of people supporting democracy and capitalism decreased after two decades ?


Quote:
Really?
Nicaragua, Cuba, Albania, Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambique, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Yugoslavia, The USSR, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia... and that's just from memory.

If not a single one of those countries was ever able to achieve "true" communism, doesn't that indicate that it can't be done?!?!

Seriously , you sound like some member of the Spanish Inquisition 600 years ago, raving that there were no "true" Christians.
First to some of those countries socialism was opposed by force. Secondly in all those countries the power was concentrated in the hands of a bunch of people.
There is only 90 years since the creation of the first socialist state. Maybe it's a bit premature to talking about it failure ? It's took millions of years for the humanity to evolve in the current men and thousands of years to create the system we are living in. If it will took some centuries to create a viable communist system there is any problem with this.
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  #55  
Old 08 Jan 12, 19:17
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  #56  
Old 09 Jan 12, 00:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Millions ? Around 700 000 were shot by Stalin. Not look like millions for me.
Don't forget the ones beaten to death in prisonn and shipped off to Siberia and left to die of exposure & disappear, or the mass starvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
From the scientific point of view a human is 70% of water and the rest is shared by lipids, proteins and so on. Before speaking about freedom and the value of human life, think about the aspect I pointed.
This makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
If you forget this I wll point you that in the 50-60 the life expectancy in SU was at the level of the West, with free medecine, free education, granted work, granted place to live, leading positions in science and military.
I doubt that life-expectancy thing, very much.
Free Health-care, including the dentistry that Russia is so famous for?
You get what you pay for.
Granted this and granted that... dosn't sound like they had much choice in the matter, at either end.
like serfs 1,000 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Like great depression and millions of people waiting for popular soup ?
Funny thing about that...
You guys are always saying how the US and UK just fought the war with money and let you guys do the bleeding.
How exactly did we manage to be swimming in Gold after a Depression like that, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
To this you forgot to add that those Western countries had at their orders colonies and huge industries. Read more about the life of people in colonies, huge famines in India and the conditions of work in the 19th century. USSR only did what everybody else did but only 50 years later. But it's not their fault.
What is that all about?
And the rest of that post isn't any more sensible, must be late over there.
Just forget it.
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  #57  
Old 09 Jan 12, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
http://romaniantimes.at/?id=12321

And many people still remember the life under communism and have regrets or at least nostalgia about it.
I don't know who wrote/translated that article, but it is incomplete or inaccurate.

This article matches far better the articles I've read in the Romanian press about this poll:

http://www.nineoclock.ro/poll-60-pc-...usescus-death/

Only 45 per cent of the respondents can be called nostalgics.
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Old 09 Jan 12, 12:43
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Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500]
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Don't forget the ones beaten to death in prisonn and shipped off to Siberia and left to die of exposure & disappear, or the mass starvation.
The majority of the deaths in Gulags occured during the German invasion. I never read about people disappering in Siberia. The famines weren't caused by Soviet government but by the bad management and incopetence. The idea of mass starvation as genocide is simply rediculous.


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This makes no sense whatsoever.
It makes more sence than the idea of humans to have a soul or freedom. My point is proved by science.


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I doubt that life-expectancy thing, very much.
Free Health-care, including the dentistry that Russia is so famous for?
You get what you pay for.
Granted this and granted that... dosn't sound like they had much choice in the matter, at either end.
like serfs 1,000 years ago.
In 1961 in USSR it was 69,5 and in USA it was 69,9.

Russian dentistry is certainly not so famous as American healthy diet.

Concerning serfs thing, it's not my problem that you created the cult of the individualism. We live in a society. Society is more important than the individual. So simple as that.


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Funny thing about that...
You guys are always saying how the US and UK just fought the war with money and let you guys do the bleeding.
How exactly did we manage to be swimming in Gold after a Depression like that, eh?
Don't remember who was the only major belligerent who finished the war without major destructions and without serious human loses ?
When the war ended you get for you plenty of new markets with France and GB losing their influence and colonial empires. Germany and Japan were destroyed and vanquished. Soviet Union was in ruins and suffered enormous human loses.


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What is that all about?
And the rest of that post isn't any more sensible, must be late over there.
Just forget it.
Everybody did what communists did. You were not different from them.
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  #59  
Old 09 Jan 12, 12:50
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Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500]
Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500] Emtos is a jewel in the rough [500]
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
I don't know who wrote/translated that article, but it is incomplete or inaccurate.

This article matches far better the articles I've read in the Romanian press about this poll:

http://www.nineoclock.ro/poll-60-pc-...usescus-death/

Only 45 per cent of the respondents can be called nostalgics.

According to the opinion poll, 45 per cent of Romanians believe that their lives would have been better had there been no revolution, with only a little over 25 per cent believing their lives would have been worse.

It makes only 25% of people who believe the opposite and 30% without an openion.
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Old 09 Jan 12, 13:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
According to the opinion poll, 45 per cent of Romanians believe that their lives would have been better had there been no revolution, with only a little over 25 per cent believing their lives would have been worse.

It makes only 25% of people who believe the opposite and 30% without an openion.
The 30% may think things would have been the same or they didn't want/know how to answer.
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