HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > History Library > Alternate Timelines

Notices and Announcements

Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30 Dec 10, 04:03
allsirgarnet's Avatar
allsirgarnet allsirgarnet is offline
General
UK
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 4,688
allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700]
allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700] allsirgarnet is a glorious beacon of light [700]
SEALION Late 1940?

A Sealion question by the back door...

How late could the above operation have taken place in 1940, to give a reasonable chance of success?

Assumption is that the BoB would still be ongoing, and that Hitler had eventually lost patience and ordered the attack (not an unreasonable assumption I feel).

Supplimentary...

Given a late start to the preparations and the invasion itself, could the operation have been successfully sustained into late autumn/fall and possibly full winter, at a cost bearable to Germany?

How might the ongoing invasion have affected other fronts (North Africa) and/or the political and military actions of (then) neutral nations such as the USA, the USSR and Japan?

Regards

Gaz
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 30 Dec 10, 04:20
KICK's Avatar
KICK KICK is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barron Colliers Land
Posts: 8,710
KICK is a jewel in the rough [500]
KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500] KICK is a jewel in the rough [500]
you could probably apply the same factors the Allies did regarding Normandy and come up with a goodanswer
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 30 Dec 10, 06:11
Gooner's Avatar
Gooner Gooner is offline
General of the Forums
England
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Posts: 5,619
Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300] Gooner is on a distinguished road [300]
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 30 Dec 10, 06:45
redcoat's Avatar
redcoat redcoat is offline
General
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Michael Thomas
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Stockport Cheshire UK
Posts: 4,772
redcoat is simply cracking [600]
redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600] redcoat is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
AHow late could the above operation have taken place in 1940, to give a reasonable chance of success?
My understanding is that the German's and British were on the same page with this question... late September.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 30 Dec 10, 07:00
Roddoss72's Avatar
Roddoss72 Roddoss72 is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Roderick
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In front of the computer
Posts: 6,748
Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
My understanding is that the German's and British were on the same page with this question... late September.
I have read that the Germans had a window of about 4 to 6 weeks after Dunkerque, this was the best time in which the British Army was in no real shape to fight.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 30 Dec 10, 07:08
the ace's Avatar
the ace the ace is offline
General
Scotland
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Andrew
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 4,208
the ace is a jewel in the rough [500]
the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500] the ace is a jewel in the rough [500]
The English Channel was a far greater threat than the British Army.

By late September, the Autumn gales and frequent storms would've made a landing virtually impossible without a safe port ( remember, in '44 the Allies cheated and built one).

All possibility of a 1940 invasion had vanished by September, it's as simple as that.
__________________
"But surely, Mr Salmond, you have a secret agenda ?"

"Oh come on, Kirsty ! It's hardly a secret that Alex Salmond and the Scottish National Party want independence for Scotland."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 30 Dec 10, 07:14
lcm1's Avatar
lcm1 lcm1 is offline
Regimental Sergeant Major of the Forums
Australia
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 11,971
lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700]
lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
My understanding is that the German's and British were on the same page with this question... late September.
You have got to be joking rc, being a Pom you ought to know what an uncertain time that is to conduct a seaborne landing, late september is early October and the Autumn come Winter Atlantic weather is beginning to push its way up the south coasts of England. The British authorities were probably HOPING that they would try it at that time, because the weather would have been on our side! lcm1
__________________
'By Horse by Tram'.


I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 30 Dec 10, 07:17
lcm1's Avatar
lcm1 lcm1 is offline
Regimental Sergeant Major of the Forums
Australia
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 11,971
lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700]
lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700] lcm1 is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
A Sealion question by the back door...

How late could the above operation have taken place in 1940, to give a reasonable chance of success?

Assumption is that the BoB would still be ongoing, and that Hitler had eventually lost patience and ordered the attack (not an unreasonable assumption I feel).

Supplimentary...

Given a late start to the preparations and the invasion itself, could the operation have been successfully sustained into late autumn/fall and possibly full winter, at a cost bearable to Germany?

How might the ongoing invasion have affected other fronts (North Africa) and/or the political and military actions of (then) neutral nations such as the USA, the USSR and Japan?

Regards

Gaz
Ever been on Brighton beach in the Autumn/Winter Alfie? lcm1
__________________
'By Horse by Tram'.


I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 30 Dec 10, 07:35
american1975's Avatar
american1975 american1975 is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
 
Real Name: Bill Jarett
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: West Haven
Posts: 1,347
american1975 is on the path to success [1-99] american1975 is on the path to success [1-99] american1975 is on the path to success [1-99] american1975 is on the path to success [1-99] american1975 is on the path to success [1-99] american1975 is on the path to success [1-99] american1975 is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Piece of cake...I'll stay on ship and observe
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 30 Dec 10, 07:49
D1J1's Avatar
D1J1 D1J1 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Eastern US
Posts: 8,240
D1J1 has earned the respect of all [900] D1J1 has earned the respect of all [900]
D1J1 has earned the respect of all [900] D1J1 has earned the respect of all [900] D1J1 has earned the respect of all [900] D1J1 has earned the respect of all [900] D1J1 has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
I have read that the Germans had a window of about 4 to 6 weeks after Dunkerque, this was the best time in which the British Army was in no real shape to fight.
While that may be, where were the assets to carry the ratzis over the Channel? Even if they weren't beset by weather and the RN.

Regards,
Dennis
__________________
If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 30 Dec 10, 07:55
Tuck's Luck's Avatar
Tuck's Luck Tuck's Luck is offline
Lieutenant General
Wales
 
Real Name: Jennie
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 3,853
Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600]
Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600] Tuck's Luck is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post

What's the old saying - a picture paints a thousand words .... just imagine them old Rhine barges bobbing about on that lot, German soldiers chucking their guts up over the side .....
__________________
"COOMMAAAAAAANNNNDOOOO!!!!!"
- Mad Jack Churchill.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 30 Dec 10, 09:35
Roddoss72's Avatar
Roddoss72 Roddoss72 is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Roderick
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In front of the computer
Posts: 6,748
Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300] Roddoss72 is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
What's the old saying - a picture paints a thousand words .... just imagine them old Rhine barges bobbing about on that lot, German soldiers chucking their guts up over the side .....
Good more burley for fishing
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 30 Dec 10, 09:51
The Purist's Avatar
The Purist The Purist is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
England
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gerry Proudfoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In my castle by the sea.
Posts: 11,204
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
I have read that the Germans had a window of about 4 to 6 weeks after Dunkerque, this was the best time in which the British Army was in no real shape to fight.
And the Germans had no means of crossing the Channel.

Sep 24th was set as S-day and it was about the earliest the Germans could have managed considering they were coming over in barges being towed at 3-4 knots.
__________________
The Purist

Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 30 Dec 10, 10:31
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Australia
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 20,349
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
"A Sealion question by the back door..."
It can be thrown out by either the back door or the front; take your pick.


Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
"How late could the above operation have taken place in 1940, to give a reasonable chance of success?"
Sealion NEVER had a "reasonable chance" of success!


Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
"Assumption is that the BoB would still be ongoing, and that Hitler had eventually lost patience and ordered the attack (not an unreasonable assumption I feel). "
Attempt a cross-channel invasion without adequate preparation; without the required air superiority over the Channel and SE England; AND against the might of the Royal Navy?

You've gotta be joking! Even Hitler wasn't that stupid!
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 30 Dec 10, 10:38
Canuckster's Avatar
Canuckster Canuckster is offline
Brigadier General
Canada
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,409
Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300] Canuckster is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Pfft ! That would be a piece of cake...



The above pic is from Devon btw.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:04.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.