Tories now say prison does not work

[kendrick]

For years the Tories were calling for more prison places, now faced with hugh budget cuts they have changed their minds. The new Tory Justice Kenneth Clarke told an audience at the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies that it is time to stop playing the 'numbers game', which measures success in terms of spending and how many prisoners are locked up.

He said: 'The consequence is that more and more offenders have been warehoused in outdated facilities, and we spend vast amounts of public money on prison but no proper thought has been given to whether this is really the best and most effective way of protecting the public against crime. So I ask this: how do we actually go about improving the safety and protecting the property of honest citizens in the most cost-effective way?
'I do not doubt that certain forms of crime have fallen in recent years. But have they fallen because more people are in prison? Or because there was less temptation to live by crime during a period of economic boom? But does ever more prison for ever more offenders always produce better results for the public? We have many more people in prison than many other countries with lower crime levels. We have one of the highest crime rates in Western Europe, and one of the highest prison populations.'

The previous Labour Government had set a target of 96,000 prison places by 2014. In opposition, the Tories pledged to exceed this by taking the total to more than 100,000 for the first time.

Now not having been in prison unlike some top Tories in the last Major Government (Jeffery Archer and Johnathan Aitken), I do not claim to know if prison works or not but it a hugh change in the Tory position just a few weeks after an election when they were saying the reserve.

[Rojik]

The backflip is interesting but I agree with the idea that there might be a better way, and it doesn't hurt to at least discuss it.

While there are certain people that need to be caged (or killed - but that is a separate discussion) because of their threat to society there are also those that commit minor offences that only get hardened and an apprenticeship from their time inside which only makes them more likely to re-offend. There are also factors like preventive policing, education and better help for mentally ill people.

I don't really think that there is any easy solution but it is a question worth the asking.

[Catman]

Prisons do work. They do exactly what they're designed to do, incarcerate criminals. While inside, THAT person commits no crimes against society at large.

What causes people to commit crimes is a different issue, and probably more complex than any government can fix.

But what are they proposing to do about "prisons not working"?

[Listy]

Originally Posted by Catman

Prisons do work. They do exactly what they're designed to do, incarcerate criminals. While inside, THAT person commits no crimes against society at large.

What causes people to commit crimes is a different issue, and probably more complex than any government can fix.

But what are they proposing to do about "prisons not working"?

The trouble is that allot of these places are taken up by short term sentences caused by the previous governments attempt to make anything illegal.
You'll notice that Ken Clarke is talking about the shorter sentences of under a year.

[Half Pint John]

Other than prison what other option is open for UK criminals?

Last I heard Australia isn't taking any new ones and those of the UK are only admitted for familiy reunoins.

Well at least that's what I heard.

[Rojik]

Originally Posted by Half Pint John

Other than prison what other option is open for UK criminals?

Last I heard Australia isn't taking any new ones and those of the UK are only admitted for familiy reunoins.

Well at least that's what I heard.

Meh. We send our riff-raff to the UK these days.

[Listy]

Originally Posted by Half Pint John

Other than prison what other option is open for UK criminals?

Last I heard Australia isn't taking any new ones and those of the UK are only admitted for familiy reunoins.

Well at least that's what I heard.

Corporal Punishment? Sorry I've been reading Starship Troopers again, and came over all sensible.


Seriously there's various schemes and community punishments that can be used.

[Half Pint John]

Originally Posted by Listy

Corporal Punishment? Sorry I've been reading Starship Troopers again, and came over all sensible.


Seriously there's various schemes and community punishments that can be used.

Personally, I'm all for bring back some of the punishments from the past for petty crimes. A night or two in the stocks, a dunking stool perhaps.

[Listy]

The words of a much greater writer than me.

[Exorcist]

Send 'em to the Falklands to chase sheep around for a few years.

[Kimi]

Originally Posted by Catman

Prisons do work. They do exactly what they're designed to do, incarcerate criminals. While inside, THAT person commits no crimes against society at large.

What causes people to commit crimes is a different issue, and probably more complex than any government can fix.

But what are they proposing to do about "prisons not working"?

That depends on what your government and society wants prisions to be. Resocialization facilities? Storage facilities? Punitive facilities? Not all of those 3 might be easily combinable.
If you just want to store people for a set amount of time they might not learn to resocialize and be back for another storage term. If you take a long view it's an advantage to resocialize those people as they will then become a boon instead of a drain.

[Fareasterner]

Originally Posted by Kimi

That depends on what your government and society wants prisions to be. Resocialization facilities? Storage facilities? Punitive facilities? Not all of those 3 might be easily combinable.
If you just want to store people for a set amount of time they might not learn to resocialize and be back for another storage term. If you take a long view it's an advantage to resocialize those people as they will then become a boon instead of a drain.

I wonder what for boss of company will hire criminal when there are numerous jobless non-criminals who deserve jobs much more than scum

[Kimi]

Originally Posted by Fareasterner

I wonder what for boss of company will hire criminal when there are numerous jobless non-criminals who deserve jobs much more than scum

of course no-one will. however over here people are not scum when they run afoul of the law. They also dont stay criminals after they have recieved their punishment, it would make no sense to put them unto prision and then never give them a job again. They would get an eternal punishment that way and be a drain on society, might as well execute them outright for shop-lifting at 14. (After all they turn into undeserving scum then)

Also, the job choices in germany are not binary. Not every boss has a choice between an undeserving criminal scum and a deserving citizen of equal skill or willingness to work. Most people look for the willingness to work and ability to work as more important. if you've got a guy who shop lifted and a guy who looks like he smokes 24/7 and drinks alcohol on work (neither of wich is criminal) then most bosses will choose the ex-criminal and will observe him closely until they trust him or fire him.

Thats what resocialization is about, the other choice is far too often to condemn the people in question to "work" for criminal gangs because thats the only job they can get if no legal buisiness gives them work.

[Acheron]

Well said Kimi, take note though that the mentality in America and Europe is widely different though, re-socializing being the primary goal in Europe, punishment being it in the United States.
The cultural differences in that area are actually quite pronounced, life-imprisonment for three times of petty theft wouldn't sit well here even with the notoriously bloodthirsty crowd. Every nation has to find the system that fits it.

[Anglopole]

Re-habilitation is one thing. I believe in shorter sentances for petty crimes and for courses to try and give them a trade or a goal in life (and I dont mean the bank vault on Wall street a la Die Hard 3) but jails here seem to have gone soft in the sense that they have computers, satellite TV, craft rooms. Everything the average joe hasnt. People are getting mad and expecting tougher sentances and jails not necessarily becasue they want that but becasue they are fed up with being punished for being law-abiding.

We need to look into the causes of petty crime, keep the younger ones off of that and it wont develop.

PCSOs have actually proven their worth (if developed with a few extra powers) and can help stop petty crime but it is only a tiny tiny step.

Prison should be prison but that doesnt mean we throw away the keys! Mr Minute is expensive now!