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World War IIDiscuss WW2. Sponsored by World War II magazine.
Germanys most fatal blunder was to cast coveting eyes upon surrounding countries and going to war over it in the first place! If Adolf had just sat back and luxuriated in his popularity at home, he would have been on a good thing for years but no he took that fatal step which could only end one way, for even he could never triumph over the whole of the Western World and Russia as well!
He needed the war to prop up his power base. Thats why he went in 38/39 when in actuality he wasn't really ready and knew it. The economy was going seriously down the fritz by 1939 and his economic policies (very similar to the current British government I hasten to add) were running out of time as the folly of running up a deficit to paper over the cracks of his basket case economics were coming home to roost. Without the war he was doomed politically by the early 1940s. Anyway Lebensraum was his political raison d'etre and the whole point of the war.
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"Don't steal, the government hates competition."
"They say Rome wasn't built in a day but I wasnt on that particular job" Brian Clough
No basis in reality. Hitler was in power for 6 years and the Soviets did not take an inch of foreign land, on the contrary, they sought to contain Hitler and keep a balance within Europe.
How can you say that? The Soviets happily signed a secret pact with the Nazi's that divided Poland and gave the Baltic states to them. Also during the 6th year the USSR invaded Finland. I suggest you read "Stalin's secret war" by Nikolai Tolstoy to see what a predator state the USSR was under Stalin.
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If you build a man a fire he will be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Because I have a sense of historical reality and context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
The Soviets happily signed a secret pact with the Nazi's that divided Poland and gave the Baltic states to them.
No, they were forced into that position by the actions of the western allies and they signed a nonaggression pact that granted them spheres of influence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
Also during the 6th year the USSR invaded Finland. I suggest you read "Stalin's secret war" by Nikolai Tolstoy to see what a predator state the USSR was under Stalin.
The Winter War occurred after WWII had begun. As for Tolstoy, he's a biased source at best.
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"This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. Voltaire
Because I have a sense of historical reality and context.
Aha! Abuse. The USSR was not a state that promoted word revolution under communism? Damn! If only the free world had have known that 60 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
No, they were forced into that position by the actions of the western allies and they signed a nonaggression pact that granted them spheres of influence.
They were not forced to invade 5 countries in a matter of months. Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Finland were not threats to the USSR in any way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
The Winter War occurred after WWII had begun. As for Tolstoy, he's a biased source at best.
Possibly on the Tolstoy account but it gels with other reading I have done. Just because he doesn't like the regime doesn't make him wrong. As for Finland it was still the act of a predator nation to invade it.
__________________
If you build a man a fire he will be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Aha! Abuse. The USSR was not a state that promoted word revolution under communism? Damn! If only the free world had have known that 60 years ago.
Look up Socialism in one country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
They were not forced to invade 5 countries in a matter of months. Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Finland were not threats to the USSR in any way.
The Soviet Union was threatened into invading Poland. As for Finland, they wanted a rearrangement of the border, Finland would not comply, as was their right, what followed was inevitable. Considering the distance from Finland to Leningrad, and that Germany could put Finland to use against the Soviet Union, this was not an unwarranted move. As for the Baltic states, the invasion and defeat of France showed Stalin he was now alone in Europe, having an extended defensive region was his next thought and move, also not unwarranted. You should look into 'historical context' and use some of it instead of proclaiming pseudo-arbitrary judgments with no basis in factual history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
Possibly on the Tolstoy account but it gels with other reading I have done. Just because he doesn't like the regime doesn't make him wrong. As for Finland it was still the act of a predator nation to invade it.
It makes him biased, as I'm sure most of the 'other reading' you've done also is. As for Finland, see above.
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"This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. Voltaire
The Soviet Union was threatened into invading Poland. As for Finland, they wanted a rearrangement of the border, Finland would not comply, as was their right, what followed was inevitable. Considering the distance from Finland to Leningrad, and that Germany could put Finland to use against the Soviet Union, this was not an unwarranted move. As for the Baltic states, the invasion and defeat of France showed Stalin he was now alone in Europe, having an extended defensive region was his next thought and move, also not unwarranted. You should look into 'historical context' and use some of it instead of proclaiming pseudo-arbitrary judgments with no basis in factual history
That is revisionism at its finest. I applaud you for that but it is also magical thinking at it's worst which means I have to take the applause away.
"The Soviet Union was threatened into invading Poland"? C'mon. Could you even keep a straight face when you typed that? Finland had the balls to say no to the USSR when they were told to cede territory meant that 600K+ soldiers should invade it? The Baltic states were vassals of the Nazi government so they needed to be invaded, repressed and looted?
To say that Stalin was so afraid of Hitler that he needed to invade every small country around him is a joke; and not a funny one at that. This is the same man that refused to believe that his "bestest buddy" Adolf had invaded his country and had people shot for suggesting that it was on the cards or had happened.
As for this: "You should look into 'historical context' and use some of it instead of proclaiming pseudo-arbitrary judgements with no basis in factual history". I am yet to see anything from you that backs up your side of things apart from some glib statements that my reading is bias and I have no idea of the 'historical context'. I understand the 'historical context' well enough to know that the USSR was a gangster state who looked for opportunities to expand itself at every turn, and I believe that to try and defend such a system that the Stalinist regime had by saying that they had to do it is for their survival is as repulsive as a Nazi saying that they needed to destroy the Jew for national security.
Still you have made me rethink my original post: Hitler waiting for the USSR to act would have been a waste of time. Stalin was to much of a coward to invade anyone without Hitler taking away the heat.
__________________
If you build a man a fire he will be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.
That is revisionism at its finest. I applaud you for that but it is also magical thinking at it's worst which means I have to take the applause away.
Historical revision is a part of how history is written, rewritten history is what you should be concerned with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
"The Soviet Union was threatened into invading Poland"? C'mon. Could you even keep a straight face when you typed that?
See: Сутулин, Павел. "Был ли Сталин союзником Гитлера?" in Мифы Великой Отечественной, Алексей Исаев, et al., Mосква: Яуза Эксмо, 2008.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
Finland had the balls to say no to the USSR when they were told to cede territory meant that 600K+ soldiers should invade it?
The safety of Leningrad meant that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
The Baltic states were vassals of the Nazi government so they needed to be invaded, repressed and looted?
Don't put words in my mouth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
To say that Stalin was so afraid of Hitler that he needed to invade every small country around him is a joke; and not a funny one at that. This is the same man that refused to believe that his "bestest buddy" Adolf had invaded his country and had people shot for suggesting that it was on the cards or had happened.
Your opinions hardly merit a response in this case; try to incorporate some facts into your statements next time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
As for this: "You should look into 'historical context' and use some of it instead of proclaiming pseudo-arbitrary judgements with no basis in factual history". I am yet to see anything from you that backs up your side of things apart from some glib statements that my reading is bias and I have no idea of the 'historical context'. I understand the 'historical context' well enough to know that the USSR was a gangster state who looked for opportunities to expand itself at every turn, and I believe that to try and defend such a system that the Stalinist regime had by saying that they had to do it is for their survival is as repulsive as a Nazi saying that they needed to destroy the Jew for national security.
First off I'm not defending anyone. Your warped mind sees Manichean dichotomies all too easily, a rub-off of the totalitarian model and the Cold War. Secondly, there is no comparison between presenting unbiased and objective history vis-a-vis the Soviet Union and whitewashing Nazi crimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojik
Still you have made me rethink my original post: Hitler waiting for the USSR to act would have been a waste of time. Stalin was to much of a coward to invade anyone without Hitler taking away the heat.
Although going from baseless ignorance to further ignorance was not the goal of my post(s), at the very least you've given up on one groundless assertion in exchange for another.
__________________
"This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. Voltaire
He needed the war to prop up his power base. Thats why he went in 38/39 when in actuality he wasn't really ready and knew it. The economy was going seriously down the fritz by 1939 and his economic policies (very similar to the current British government I hasten to add) were running out of time as the folly of running up a deficit to paper over the cracks of his basket case economics were coming home to roost. Without the war he was doomed politically by the early 1940s. Anyway Lebensraum was his political raison d'etre and the whole point of the war.
Yes, you could well be right Copie, just a passing thought on my part at the time. Mind you, what you say about the reasons he started the war still points at it being a big blunder in the long run eh? ( I wriggled out of that one nicely, congratulations Ken!! )
As I was reading an article, written by Murray Williamson called Germany's Fatal Blunders, I was really surprised to find out that:
Was there really nothing Germany could have done to try and win the war? I always thought Hitler knew that he could not win the war in 1943. In 1941, everything was still up for grabs...Correct?
Have to agree with many of the previous postings. After December of 1941, the die was cast as far as the possibility of German victory. It wasn't going to happen. Hitler had sealed his own fate earlier that year by attacking the USSR, and then compounded it by declaring war on the "arsenal of democracy".
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