Why wait to attack?

[At ease]

Originally Posted by Twitter3

It just kept making me wonder why every story stated that after the bombs were away then the Germans made themselves known. Any insight would clear up a mystery to me.

I dont believe that the documentaries you have referred to are portraying an accurate picture. There may be considered to be a number of phases to the daylight air offensive against Germany. If you search for action reports of US Eighth Air Force engagements(especially the attacks against Schweinfurt 1 and 2 1943) , you will see continuous reference made to Luftwaffe fighter attacks beginning the moment escorting fighters reached the limit of their range and returned home on the outward leg. I wish to quote another instance, where Luftwaffe fighters ignored flak and attacked anyway.
"Imagine a bomber crew sitting in their cramped plane,
unable to move around or evade attack during their bombing run while
numerous German fighters speed past their plane firing at them. Second
lieutenant William Brick, the bombardier of a B-17 bomber, tells about
the day he flew to Linz, Austria on a bombing run:

. . . The remainder of the run must be perfectly straight and
level, without the slightest deviation, or our five-
thousand-pound bomb load will fall wide of the target. No evasive
action is possible. . . Then comes the sickening rattle of
machine-gun bullets and cannon fire hitting our ship; ignoring
the flak from the antiaircraft batteries, German fighter planes
zoom in so close that it seems they will ram us. . . Even at the
sub-zero temperatures of this altitude, salty sweat pours down my
face and burns my eyeballs. Cursing and praying, I am gripped by
the same brand of helpless fear that fliers experience during
every bomb run. I feel the terror in my hands, in my stomach,
even in my feet. Long after returning from the mission, its
effects will remain etched indelibly on my face. . . . (Brick 61)"
http://www.cyberessays.com/History/79.htm

This document is especially useful because it highlights the change of fighter escort policy introduced by General Jimmy Doolittle(B25 Tokyo Raid Commander) on becoming commander of the US Eighth Air Force in early 1944. The one thing that the Germans did not do was continuously attack the escorting fighters over the English Channel forcing them to release their drop tanks prematurely. The reason this did not take place was that Hitler considered it better for morale if the populace could see their fighters attacking over home soil, rather than attacking where they would not be observed by his subjects, even if it gave the defenders a tougher job in the process.

[Twitter3]

Thanks all for the insight.

At ease - great find on those quotes. Certainly makes one appreciate the work those bomber crews went through.

[the ace]

The P-51s virtually eliminated the fighter problem towards the end.

The bombers would meet the first wave of escorts just after leaving England, but these would be low on fuel by the time the target was reached (they'd be burning a lot as they flew ahead of the bombers searching for German fighters).

As the first wave of escorts turned for home, the second wave would be arriving, having used their superior speed to catch up with the formations and they'd cover the bombers' withdrawal.

It should be noted that this all-the-way escort did not arrive until 1944 and before this the P-47s had to break off at the limit of their range before refuelling and rearming to meet the bombers on their return.

[Andrey]

There are 2 different cases - night raids and daylight raids.

In night raids at first German fighter-pilots haf to see Allied bombers. It was no so easy.

In daylight raids...

Of course it was easier to attack bomber after they dropped the bombs
- the Germans could concentrate more fighters
- Allied bomber "boxes" were broken in some scale by flak fire so it was easier to attack them
- some Allied bombers were damaged and left behing their formatioons
- Allied crewmen were more tired

In the same time the German often operated as sportsmen whose main target was to shoot as more as possible enemy planes. This tactics often contradicted to the task to defend the targets that were under their protection.

There were numerous facts in the Soviet_german Front when German fighter avoided to enter a combat to cover their troops, objects or bombers when the conditions were uncomfortable to them.

There were numerous facts when German pilots like Hartman attacked Soviet IL-2s or Pe-2s after the Soviet planes fulfilled their mission and attacked German ground troops. German fighter tried to increase their personal "account" and didn't think about own ground forces. Of course it was easier to shoot damaged single IL-2s after the bombing then to attack an organized formation of IL-2s which often had fighter escort.

For the Soviet side the situation "to shoot down enemy bombers after the bombing" was absolutely inadmissible. The first task for the Soviet fighters was to fulfill their mission. If their mission was to cover a ground opbject or to cover Soviet bombers so they were to to do it and the justiofication like "the bridge which I was ordered to cover was destroyed by bombers but I shot down 2 coming away bombers" was absolutely inadmissible. In such case the pilot would be punished.

[At ease]

Originally Posted by Andrey

In daylight raids...

Of course it was easier to attack bomber after they dropped the bombs
- the Germans could concentrate more fighters
- Allied bomber "boxes" were broken in some scale by flak fire so it was easier to attack them
- some Allied bombers were damaged and left behing their formatioons
- Allied crewmen were more tired

In the same time the German often operated as sportsmen whose main target was to shoot as more as possible enemy planes. This tactics often contradicted to the task to defend the targets that were under their protection.

I don't believe that your observation is correct.
Here is an extract providing some information(from a US perspective) dealing with the first two attacks on mainland Germany by 8th Air Force in June 1943 on Wilhelmshaven and Bremen(up till then all attacks on France, Norway etc).
"Things went very much as expected, which is not to say that they went well. As on previous AAF missions to those parts, the German fighters appeared in force but reserved their attacks until the bombing formations were committed to the bombing run. Then, when pilots and bombardiers were preoccupied with matters other than evasive tactics and defensive nose fire, the enemy planes converged in coordinated head-on attacks aimed primarily at destroying the aim of the lead bombardiers. During their attacks, the enemy closed to such an extent that at least three collisions were narrowly avoided and one actually occurred, the wing of an Fw-190 chopping across the nose of a B-17 as the fighter pilot attempted to roll while passing over the bomber. These attacks seriously impaired the ability of the lead bombardier to bomb accurately, with resulting detriment to the bombing of the entire formation. The lead aircraft had both No. 1 and No. 2 motors knocked out with the result that the plane yawed badly. At the same time the leader of the low group had one motor knocked out, and every plane in the lead squadron of that group had at least one feathered propeller.2

Bombing accuracy at Wilhelmshaven was consequently poor, few bombs of the 417 tons dropped did serious damage, and none hit the target (the building yards). The enemy attacks may be considered, therefore, quite successful. Their score in terms of aircraft destroyed is not so impressive, although they accounted for most of the eight lost by the Americans that day. They appeared content to confuse

--669--

the bombing run and in the process to force a few bombers to become stragglers, which would render them easy prey to fighter attack.3

On the Eighth's next day out, 13 June, the GAF again demonstrated that daylight bombing of targets in Germany beyond the range of Allied escort was likely to be a difficult and costly project. This time, however, events took a different shape. It was the relatively small force from the 4th Wing, attacking Kiel while the main force went to Bremen, that bore the brunt. Of the sixty B-17's that succeeded in bombing Kiel (forty-four attacked the building yards and sixteen the harbor area), twenty-two were lost as a result of the heaviest fighter attack yet encountered by the Eighth Air Force. The enemy hit them as they neared the German coast, and in force: Me-109's and 110s, cannon-firing Fw-190's, even Ju-88's and black-painted night fighters. The attacks were pressed with vigor and tenacity, but the small force of Fortresses fought its way steadily through the swarming enemy until it sighted Kiel. There it delivered its bombs with the battle at its hottest and the lead plane already mortally damaged. In the circumstances it would be churlish to blame them for bombing with less than "precision" accuracy. On the return trip the attacks continued. It was a broken and scattered remnant that landed in England. Claims registered by the returning crews totaled thirty-nine enemy aircraft destroyed, five probably destroyed, and fourteen damaged. It is impossible to estimate the planes destroyed by those bomber crews who were themselves shot down, but considering the intensity of the fighting they must have been numerous. Possibly therefore the claims against enemy fighters may in this instance be closer to the facts than usual. Though hailed by both British and American air commands as a great victory, the "battle of Kiel" can be so considered only in terms of the bravery and determination with which the shattered force of bombers did in fact reach the target and drop its bombs. In terms of the cold statistics which ultimately measure air victories, it was a sobering defeat.4" http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/II/AAF-II-20.html

On the first Schweinfurt raid:
"Enemy resistance more than justified the most sober predictions. Both forces ran into almost continuous fighter opposition, pressed home with the utmost intensity and accounting for the great majority of bombers lost. Scarcely did one group of enemy fighters withdraw before another took its place. The Luftwaffe unleashed every trick and device in its repertoire. The Me-109's and Fw-190's attacked from all directions, singly and in groups. In some instances entire squadrons attacked in "javelin up" formation, which made evasive action on the part of the bombers extremely difficult. In others, three and four enemy aircraft came on abreast, attacking simultaneously. Occasionally the enemy resorted to vertical attacks from above, driving straight down at the bombers with fire concentrated on the general vicinity of the top turret,

--685--

a tactic which proved effective. Some enemy fighters fired cannon and some rockets. Even parachute bombs were employed in a desperate effort to stop the bomber formations as they droned on toward their targets. Both AAF forces suffered in roughly the same proportion. It is probable that the Regensburg groups might have lost even more heavily in the air battle had they returned to their English bases, for they appear to have taken the Luftwaffe by surprise when they continued on toward the Mediterranean. It was the most intensive air battle as yet experienced by the American daylight bombing force, and certainly one of the worst in the memory of the Germans. For the hard-hit Americans there was a certain comfort in one of the last phrases picked up by radio interception. After increasingly excited claims of strikes and kills, mingled with cries of "Parachute" and "Ho, down you go, you dog, "came a final gasp, "Herr Gott Sakramant."53

Despite the ferocity of the air battle, which extended all the way to the targets, the bombers did an extremely good job." page 684/5

[At ease]

Originally Posted by Andrey

In the same time the German often operated as sportsmen whose main target was to shoot as more as possible enemy planes. This tactics often contradicted to the task to defend the targets that were under their protection.

There were numerous facts in the Soviet_german Front when German fighter avoided to enter a combat to cover their troops, objects or bombers when the conditions were uncomfortable to them.

There were numerous facts when German pilots like Hartman attacked Soviet IL-2s or Pe-2s after the Soviet planes fulfilled their mission and attacked German ground troops. German fighter tried to increase their personal "account" and didn't think about own ground forces. Of course it was easier to shoot damaged single IL-2s after the bombing then to attack an organized formation of IL-2s which often had fighter escort.

Would you be able to provide a reference for your suggestion?

[Andrey]

Originally Posted by At ease

Would you be able to provide a reference for your suggestion?

1. For example,

read something about Hartman - the significant poart of his victims were single damaged planes returing home after mission.

I have a few sources in Russian but you cann't read it.

2. It was often written in Russian sources that German fighters often used tactics of destruction of Soviet planes as Primary Target and the cover of own ground units as Secondary Target.

It is one of the reasons of Soviet High Losses in some battles - the Soviets thought about the actions against German ground forces but the Germans thought about the destruction of Soviet planes. So German fighters often let for Soviet IL-2 s and bombers to do their job (so German ground forces suffered damage and casualties) but then shot down many Soviet planes in their way home (so Soviet Air Forces suffered casualties).

So many German fighter pilots had large personal accounts but they didn't think that it was the reason of high csualties of German ground units.

[At ease]

Originally Posted by Andrey

1. For example,

read something about Hartman - the significant poart of his victims were single damaged planes returing home after mission.

I have a few sources in Russian but you cann't read it.

2. It was often written in Russian sources that German fighters often used tactics of destruction of Soviet planes as Primary Target and the cover of own ground units as Secondary Target.

1.I have read, for example, The Blond Knight of Germany by Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable. Have you?

2. http://translate.google.com/# Let's see if this works.

[Andrey]

Originally Posted by At ease

1.I have read, for example, The Blond Knight of Germany by Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable. Have you?

Yes, I have read it.

He was a free hunter mainly.

I don't remember that he covered a ground object and fought against superior Soviet fighter forces.

For Soviet Air Forces it was an ordinary case when 2-4 fighters were sent to cover an important bridge and they had to fight against 20-30 German planes including 10 fighters (and they indeed fought). Their main task was to preserve the bridge "at any price".

I don't remember any such mission of Hartmann.

He could deviate from combats in uncomfortable conditions.

If to return to the thread direct theme I think it was the common distinctive feature of German fighter pilots - they were not ready to defend ground objects "at any price". Here why they preferred to attack Allied bombers after they had dropped their bombs on German ground targets.

2. http://translate.google.com/# Let's see if this works.

I have tried to use auto-translators and the result was usually horrific.

[At ease]

Originally Posted by Andrey

If to return to the thread direct theme I think it was the common distinctive feature of German fighter pilots - they were not ready to defend ground objects "at any price". Here why they preferred to attack Allied bombers after they had dropped their bombs on German ground targets.



I have tried to use auto-translators and the result was usually horrific.

I have already made extensive references to sources refuting your contention. Please provide evidence supporting your claim.

Here is another source written by a B17 tail gunner(25 missions completed). Most(not all) describe attacks by fighters - and even by Ju 87 Stukas - being made before bomb release. http://www.historyplace.com/specials...ner-diary1.htm

I would still be interested to see what is the result of translation websites. I have heard that there have been some recent improvements.

[At ease]

Originally Posted by Andrey

I have tried to use auto-translators and the result was usually horrific.

I decided to try this http://www.peoples.ru/military/aviation/erich_hartmann/

Using http://translate.google.com/# as above it came out ok, but it appears to be very similar to an english site that I have visited. A uniquely Russian site would be interesting.