On the question of "2 mil. rapes"

[ELLE]

Thanks Errik ,while you posted the right links that worked,I qouted the web pages,LOL...That's life I guess.

[Erkki]

Sorry Elle but that is ageist the rules. You are only allowed to post a small part, not the whole page.

[Exorcist]

And from another book, one that deals with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. Seems there was a whole lot of raping going on over there, too.

"The days and weeks that followed the Russina occupation were a brutal shock to the "liberated people of Aihni. They witnessed a fair share of the orgy of rape and destruction which overtook Manchuria. On August 13th Xu Guiming saw two Russians accost in the street a local girl named Zhang, half-Russian half Chinese, like many people in the region. "We reckon you owe us one" they said and threw her to the ground. Zhang fought fiercely, kicking one attacker right off her. This caused the other man to un-sling his gun and shoot her. His careles bullets also killed his comrade, however. The occupants of a passing Russian vehicle saw this and unleashed a burst of fire that killed the murderer. All threee corpes were left unheeded in the street.

Xu himself did not witness another local incident which became notorious. A Russian burst into the home of a Policeman, a Mr. Su, who was sitting with a friend and his 20 year-old wife, newly delivered of a baby. The Russian ordered the men out and then raped the woman. When he emerged, the outraged Chinese grabbed him, bound him and threw hid down a well.
This incident rendered the avenging Chinese briefly famous, and a local hero. However, when the Communist Chinese took over, Su was arrested for killing a Russian and summarily shot. His wife was denounced as a counter-revolutionary, an outcast, and forbidden to ever marry of recieve the protection of a man.

Xu said bitterly "The Russians were suppossed to be out liberators, our brothers, but we quickly learned to regard them as out enemies."

An independent source from the other side of Eurasia... how interesting, eh?

[stalin]

Originally Posted by Exorcist

from another book...An independent source

what book? what source?

[ELLE]

I can see alot of hate towards the Russians and there "2 million rapes" question.
How many rapes the german forces committed on the Russian women? was it much worst than the Russians rapes? mmm...maybe I should just look it up on the net but Maybe some one knows more on this subject.

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by Exorcist

And from another book

Which one?

[Exorcist]

"Retribution- the fall of Japan" by David Hastings... a very hard-nosed look at everything involved in the last year of the war.

And... crap, I sent it back today, thought this was over with. I can get it back of more testimonials are wanted.

[stalin]

Originally Posted by Exorcist

"Retribution- the fall of Japan" by David Hastings... a very hard-nosed look

judging by its title, the book is a historical fiction for grandmothers, not a hardnosed look at war

[ShAA]

First, it's not David Hastings, but Max.

Second, this is exactly the same guy who wrote "Armageddon: the battle for Germany"

Thirdly, this guy seems to have chosen Russia as his pet neurotic obsession. Here are some extracts from his articles:

Putin is the new tsar, Stalin's spiritual heir...

...We may hope that in the 21st century we shall not be obliged to fight Russia. But it would be foolish to suppose that we shall be able to lie beside this dangerous, emotional beast in safety or tranquillity.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0X6Ruh98H

One of Stalin's favourite boasts was: "We screwed the English!" That gleeful sensation is still fashionable in Moscow.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...l/21/russia.bp

And a lot of other niceties. Believing his articles about Russia (or the SU) is akin to reading SS pamphlets to learn about Jewish culture.

[Cyberknight]

Originally Posted by stalin

judging by its title, the book is a historical fiction for grandmothers, not a hardnosed look at war

Why don't you read it first so your prejudices will at least sound informed when you spout off instead of ignorant.

[Exorcist]

Originally Posted by Cyberknight

Why don't you read it first so your prejudices will at least sound informed when you spout off instead of ignorant.

Damn, he beat me too it again!

But hey, don't you know the routine by now? Personal attacks on every single scholar who ever had anything critical to say about the USSR, ad infinitum ?


Back to Beevor's book, the one that apparently started it all;
You guys must have missed the first page of Chapter 11. It states that Zhukov an Konev's divisions had shrank to an average of 4,000 men each. By September 5th, 1944, 1,030,494 Criminals had been released from Gulags to provide manpower. The term criminal was even applied to those who had failed to turn up at their place of work.
Some ex-Gulag soldiers did indeed "redeem their guilt with blood, either in shtraf units or in mine-clearing companies.

The ratio of rapes per 1,000 becomes more understandable now.

And one only has to look as far as Ilya Ehrenburg to find official incitement to be as brutal as humanly possible to the Germans.


My own thoughts have already lead me to what I think is the bottom line here-
Germany has tried to come clean, denouncing it's Nazi past and successfully building a new identity for itself. There is very little morbid pining away over lost territory, and even less attempts at justification of what the old regime did, or tried to do.

Russia is the opposite on all counts, and it costs them dearly whenever any excesses of the Soviet regime, and there were many, are discussed.
This reluctance to illuminate, define and then distance themselves from the dark side of the USSR is a burden that must be a heavy one, but so be it. As long as they harbor dreams of re-creating a Communist Empire and under-mining the West, their own politics prevent them from coming clean.

And so, round and round it all goes... until some new generation wakes up, and makes a determined effort to emerge from it's Nanny-state. Who knows... maybe 100 years from now, Russia will actually be the kind of place that people are trying to move TO, and America will be just another wretched Socialist state.
Only time will tell.

[Gorque]

Originally Posted by stalin

judging by its title, the book is a historical fiction for grandmothers, not a hardnosed look at war

Originally Posted by Cyberknight

Why don't you read it first so your prejudices will at least sound informed when you spout off instead of ignorant.

Originally Posted by Exorcist

Damn, he beat me too it again!

But hey, don't you know the routine by now? Personal attacks on every single scholar who ever had anything critical to say about the USSR, ad infinitum ?

Arguing with Stalin is akin to playing a game of chess with the rules subtly changing every few moves; i.e. he can be frustrating, even annoying, but he forces you to keep on your toes and dancing.

[Exorcist]

Originally Posted by Gorque

Arguing with Stalin is akin to playing a game of chess with the rules subtly changing every few moves; i.e. he can be frustrating, even annoying, but he forces you to keep on your toes and dancing.

I think his greatest value to us there is how faithful he is to his namesake, its a very accurate reflection.
Too bad he's limited to one-liners... but I guess that goes with the name.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Exorcist

I think his greatest value to us there is how faithful he is to his namesake, its a very accurate reflection.
Too bad he's limited to one-liners... but I guess that goes with the name.

One of the most accurate descriptions yet.

[Listy]

Just a friendly warning. We're veering close to breach the rules about personal attacks here. So please can we serve back to the topic. This is possibly the First Russian Warcrimes thread I've seen that has been well behaved, Good natured and not needed closing. So it would be a shame to spoil it.

Many thanks.