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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #76  
Old 14 Aug 09, 19:22
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
Are you trying to sell me that the French, German invasion are just a myth, that there were no theories stating that Russians are subhumans in nazist Germany and Great Britain? Are you suggesting that NATO (a military alliance) and its infrastucture are just chilling out by the Russian borders. By its mere existence NATO is intended to curb somebody and who is that? Iran? Russia is aggressive, isn't it? That's the main and the only reason of the NATO existence. The "belligerence" of Russia seems to be an axiom for you but a theory or assumption for me and it can be worked with. This belligerence if any is bound to originate from the Russian collective unconsciousness and if it is correct in general it should be valid also in particular. So I ask myself am I belligerent? Do I wish Russia to sudue its' neighbours? Nope. Do my parents and friends think to this effect? Nope.

I suggest that you condescend from the heights of your intelligence and social hierachy and give a tiny bit of consideration to the possibility that it is in the interests of some of the west's ruling elites to make a bugaboo of Russia. They can all do it for different reasons some promote the vested interests of their military cliques, others capitalize on the anti-Russian sentiments 'cause it is the shortest way to power etc. In Russia the current regime does the same thing and it sometimes seems to me (and not only to me) that the west needs Putin while he needs the west (in its worst manifestation) in order to retain the power. So we let them use us as guinea pigs.
French and German invasion were real, but so were numerous Russian invasions of various countries of throughout centuries. And NATO would happily be chillin, but it was Russian generals who only last year were threatning Poland. Life in Europe is pretty good and no-one is thinking of any military adventures. Except we get constant reminders of the bad old days with threats, hecker attacks, millitary aggression, and murder in the midst of a European capital with radiological weapon, all originating in Russia. The language used by Russian government and ordinary Russians (assuming you are ordinary Russians), shows all that lessons of history were not learned, and in fact the Russians seem to operate as if in an alternat universe. Dillusion and paranoia seem prevelent.

There are no elites in the West trying to portray Russia in the bad light. Russia portrays itself in the bad light with actions which any reasonable person would find alarming. People have made peace with Germany. My grandfathers only barly survived Nazi concentrations camps. But Germany accounted for its past. Unless Russia accounts for its past it will continue to be viewed with suspicions and hatred. I think you should consider seriously why people from different countries near Russia have such negative view of Russia.

Last edited by pawelj; 14 Aug 09 at 19:27..
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  #77  
Old 15 Aug 09, 14:37
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
The Tsar Russia was the ally of Britain, Austria, Prussia etc. during Napoleon wars. There was no Russia versus West conflict as you try to present it. Russia just participated in the conflict inside the West on one of the Western sides.
So what? The fact Russia could exploit internal arguments between European countries to prevent them from banding up together against it doesn't negate the fact they staged massive invasions of Russia. Whenever there was an opportunity, thousands upon thousands of scumbags from the whole Europe swarmed Russia in hope of easy plunder, like in 1812 and 1941.

Quote:
Russians were not the only subhumans according to Hitler's vision. If Great Britain had shared the Hitler's theories it would have sided with Germany in WWII.
And what's your point?


Quote:
Nothing of the sort. The main reason for the NATO existence is that it unites lots of different and former antagonist states in one military alliance minimizing or even eliminating the possibility of war between member-states and thus ensuring peace and economic progress in Europe and the North America.
You should give your lecture about this on Cyprus. The situation would've been the same without NATO, as the idea of "United States of Europe" appeared already in the end of the 19th century. After 2 world wars the European powers completely exhausted each other and its peoples lost most of their ambitions at the international stage. Little wonder they concentrated on their ecomomic prosperity. Still Russia has always been seen by them as a threat, no matter if it's democratic or not, Red or White.


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You have no influence on the RF's policy. Belligerent Muscovite chauvenist views dominate among politicised RF's inhabitants and these views are fomented by the Kremlin.
As opposed to Ukronazi svidomite views?
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  #78  
Old 15 Aug 09, 15:10
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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
French and German invasion were real, but so were numerous Russian invasions of various countries of throughout centuries.
Nope, you missed the point. Russia's invasions were invasions carried out by Russia itself, while these invasions were supported by numerous other European countries. Napoleon had a huge number of marauding scumbags in his army, just like many "oppressed" French, Dutch and whatever volunteers heeded Hitler's call.

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And NATO would happily be chillin, but it was Russian generals who only last year were threatning Poland.
Oh really? If my neighbour starts building something suspicious next to my fence I would also start making a big deal about it. How convenient for you not to mention the reasons for these statements Do not build military crap aimed against Russia on your soil and we'll all live happily forever more.

Quote:
Life in Europe is pretty good and no-one is thinking of any military adventures. Except we get constant reminders of the bad old days with threats, hecker attacks, millitary aggression, and murder in the midst of a European capital with radiological weapon, all originating in Russia.
Well, to quote one film, "don't read Soviet newspapers in the morning". The fact the Western media (which is comparable to Pravda in it propagande fervour) paints an extremely biased picture of Russia is quite obvious.

Quote:
The language used by Russian government and ordinary Russians (assuming you are ordinary Russians), shows all that lessons of history were not learned, and in fact the Russians seem to operate as if in an alternat universe. Dillusion and paranoia seem prevelent.
Really? And what lessons do we have to learn? The first one seems to always agree with the wise masters in Europe and unquestioningly accept their point of view. Thanks, I'd rather skip this class. This is all the same, too old and boring.

Quote:
There are no elites in the West trying to portray Russia in the bad light. Russia portrays itself in the bad light with actions which any reasonable person would find alarming.
I've met a lot of people from the West who think otherwise, although they surely have no control over their states' politics and media. Just have a look at the political forum here and read the local conservatives' laments about the US media that is totally pro-Obama - this is an example of how biased media can be. So Russia's portrayal is in the eye of the beholder.

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People have made peace with Germany. My grandfathers only barly survived Nazi concentrations camps. But Germany accounted for its past. Unless Russia accounts for its past it will continue to be viewed with suspicions and hatred.
Accounts for the past? What exactly do you mean? Reparations or what?

Quote:
I think you should consider seriously why people from different countries near Russia have such negative view of Russia.
I suppose it's for the same reason Mexicans and Latin Americans don't like the US. Being big and powerful is already an offense in itself to the small and weak.
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  #79  
Old 16 Aug 09, 05:19
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Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
I give 80%. They just started a new provocations.
How big money is you 80%? I am ready to accept it and ppest’s 25% too. Your experts sell you all what you are pleased to hear about evil ruskies. Demand and supply, market economy.
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  #80  
Old 16 Aug 09, 05:53
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Originally Posted by Fareasterner View Post
How big money is you 80%? I am ready to accept it and ppest’s 25% too. Your experts sell you all what you are pleased to hear about evil ruskies. Demand and supply, market economy.
I do not need to hear any experts, just read some Russians here.

To the topic. Well, if only peace will be there it is worth to pay for it, especialy if it's only forum reputation.
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  #81  
Old 16 Aug 09, 06:15
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Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
So what? The fact Russia could exploit internal arguments between European countries to prevent them from banding up together against it doesn't negate the fact they staged massive invasions of Russia. Whenever there was an opportunity, thousands upon thousands of scumbags from the whole Europe swarmed Russia in hope of easy plunder, like in 1812 and 1941.

Russia did not exploit any internal arguments during Napoleon wars. The Russian Empire explioted their ethnic Russian serfs and their illiteracy.
It was Britain that always played on internal agruments among continental Europeans and could not stand the idea of Napoleon dominated Europe. Russia was just an instrument for Brits to cope with Napoleon. Considering the fact that the bulk of Russians were serf-slaves in their "own" state at that time, they would not have lost anything in case of Napoleon's victory. It can't be excluded that Napoleon would have eliminated serfdom in Russia if his army had won the campaign.


1941 is one of the main Soviet failures. Stalin did not prevent anything. Britain would have never sided with Germany on the same reasons why it was antoganist to Napoleon. The US wasn't interested in Nazi dominated Europe either.

The mentioned wars were not the conflicts West versus "Russia" as I stated before.


Quote:
You should give your lecture about this on Cyprus.
Cyprus has never been the member of the NATO. As to the member-states Greece and Turkey there have been no wars between them during their membership in NATO mainly thanks to the NATO.

Quote:
The situation would've been the same without NATO, as the idea of "United States of Europe" appeared already in the end of the 19th century. After 2 world wars the European powers completely exhausted each other and its peoples lost most of their ambitions at the international stage.
Nonsense. Europe was exhausted in the late 1940-1950s but later all the consequences of the war were overcome.
Europeans did not lose any ambitions. They teamed up with Europeans from the North America in the NATO and dominate in the world.

Quote:
Little wonder they concentrated on their ecomomic prosperity. Still Russia has always been seen by them as a threat, no matter if it's democratic or not, Red or White.
The tsar Russian Empire was seen as something non-European by the West but not as a threat. The RF is not seen as a threat either. It is seen as a sourse of raw materials, oil and gas.


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As opposed to Ukronazi svidomite views?
No. As opposed to common sense and reality.

Last edited by Shamil; 16 Aug 09 at 06:21..
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  #82  
Old 16 Aug 09, 10:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
Russia did not exploit any internal arguments during Napoleon wars. The Russian Empire explioted their ethnic Russian serfs and their illiteracy.
It was Britain that always played on internal agruments among continental Europeans and could not stand the idea of Napoleon dominated Europe. Russia was just an instrument for Brits to cope with Napoleon. Considering the fact that the bulk of Russians were serf-slaves in their "own" state at that time, they would not have lost anything in case of Napoleon's victory. It can't be excluded that Napoleon would have eliminated serfdom in Russia if his army had won the campaign.
Right, now conspiracy theories are coming into play, something very common for the politicised Ukrainians. These "slaves" formed

1941 is one of the main Soviet failures. Stalin did not prevent anything. Britain would have never sided with Germany on the same reasons why it was antoganist to Napoleon. The US wasn't interested in Nazi dominated Europe either.

The mentioned wars were not the conflicts West versus "Russia" as I stated before.




Quote:
Cyprus has never been the member of the NATO. As to the member-states Greece and Turkey there have been no wars between them during their membership in NATO mainly thanks to the NATO.
Read this first before pushing your regular BS. The war was very real and it wasn't any abstract "NATO membership" but a direct threat of a US intervention that stopped the countries. Just the good old Great Power politics, not any kind of "brotherly alliance". The same way wars were prevented during many Middle Eastern crises as well, where there was no NATO around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

Quote:
Nonsense. Europe was exhausted in the late 1940-1950s but later all the consequences of the war were overcome.
Europeans did not lose any ambitions. They teamed up with Europeans from the North America in the NATO and dominate in the world.
The European countries lost their political will, just like the Americans are beginning to lose it now. Whatever they speak of "soft power" now is more of an euphemism of their impotence than a sign of their cultural influence.

Quote:
The tsar Russian Empire was seen as something non-European by the West but not as a threat. The RF is not seen as a threat either. It is seen as a sourse of raw materials, oil and gas.
There was a very long and eduring tradition to portray Russia as a barbarian horde just waiting to flood the Western Europe, just try to read any Western texts on 19th century Russia, like the seminal work of de Custine "Russia in 1839". This book became the cornerstone of Russian studies in Europe in the middle of 19th century. I have to repeat once again the sheer bias against the Russians in the West is comparable to the one against the Jews in the 19th century Europe.

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No. As opposed to common sense and reality.
An alternative reality, indeed.
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  #83  
Old 16 Aug 09, 13:08
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Originally Posted by ShAA View Post


Read this first before pushing your regular BS. The war was very real and it wasn't any abstract "NATO membership" but a direct threat of a US intervention that stopped the countries. Just the good old Great Power politics, not any kind of "brotherly alliance". The same way wars were prevented during many Middle Eastern crises as well, where there was no NATO around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
The conflict was between Turkish and Greek citizens of Cyprus, the country that wasn't the NATO member state, later there was Turkish intervention. There was no direct war between NATO member states Greece and Turkey. There were no reports about possible direct American intervention. The US just played the role of mediator on behalf of the NATO.



Quote:
The European countries lost their political will, just like the Americans are beginning to lose it now. Whatever they speak of "soft power" now is more of an euphemism of their impotence than a sign of their cultural influence.
What do you imply under "political will" here? And who has the political will in the world then? Perhaps Russians who usually do their best to avoid being recruited to their glorious Armed Forces? Chinese who work in the factories and plants owned by the West? Who?


Quote:
There was a very long and eduring tradition to portray Russia as a barbarian horde just waiting to flood the Western Europe, just try to read any Western texts on 19th century Russia, like the seminal work of de Custine "Russia in 1839". This book became the cornerstone of Russian studies in Europe in the middle of 19th century. I have to repeat once again the sheer bias against the Russians in the West is comparable to the one against the Jews in the 19th century Europe.
Yeah, the tsar Russian Empire was a progressive state where Russians enjoyed to be treated, bought and sold by their masters like African slaves in America or Europe. And the West was so foolish that could not understand such evident things.
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  #84  
Old 16 Aug 09, 13:27
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
The conflict was between Turkish and Greek citizens of Cyprus, the country that wasn't the NATO member state, later there was Turkish intervention. There was no direct war between NATO member states Greece and Turkey. There were no reports about possible direct American intervention. The US just played the role of mediator on behalf of the NATO.
Both countries were members of NATO and both of them were on the brink of an all-out war. Read the link.

Quote:
What do you imply under "political will" here? And who has the political will in the world then? Perhaps Russians who usually do their best to avoid being recruited to their glorious Armed Forces? Chinese who work in the factories and plants owned by the West? Who?
How are these examples related to foreign politics? It's the will to act on the international stage and to use force where necessary. So far it was only the US that decided to use it in Afghanistan and Iraq. Russia has finally shown some of it too when it finally acted in S.Ossetia and Abkhasia last summer.

Quote:
Yeah, the tsar Russian Empire was a progressive state where Russians enjoyed to be treated, bought and sold by their masters like African slaves in America or Europe. And the West was so foolish that could not understand such evident things.
And what did it have to do with "threats" of any kind? You're mixing up internal and foreign politics again. The situation with human rights was no better in the Ottoman empire, yet is wasn't seen as a threat just for the reason it was the "sick man of Europe". In the days of the Crimean war the "Christian West" praised its "noble Muslim allies with a unique and original culture". Now that the Muslims are too assertive in fighting for their religious views they are viewed as "evil barbarians", of course. Just like when Russia was in shambles it was seen as "good", and now it's "bad" again. So the bottom line is that a country's strength or weakness is the key to whether it is a "threat" to the West or not, and not its internal politics.
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  #85  
Old 16 Aug 09, 17:27
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Russia still is in shambles. All the Russophobia in the Western media is just fluff. The Western imperialists know the Russian ego and complex all too well. They know that if they portray Putin/Medvedev as strong, and if they make it seem like they are afraid of some resurgent Russia, Russians will think their leaders are standing up to the west, but more importantly think that the current regime is at worst, tolerable.

But for all the anti-American/Western rhetoric, those dollars and Euros are still flowing in, and the people flowing out.
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Old 20 Aug 09, 16:26
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Russians will think their leaders are standing up to the west, but more importantly think that the current regime is at worst, tolerable.

So, if it's all fluff and nonsense, what are we really arguing about here, anyway?

Quote:
But for all the anti-American/Western rhetoric, those dollars and Euros are still flowing in, and the people flowing out.
So... those evil, Satanic CAPITALISTS are still propping up the Russian economy, and everyone who can do better elsewhere are still leaving.

If I were there, I would be pushing for improvements in infrastructure and production, and breaking up the Collective Farms... instead of adventurous little wars to beat up ex-vassal states that seem to be getting too friendly with the US.
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Old 20 Aug 09, 16:51
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Russians will think their leaders are standing up to the west, but more importantly think that the current regime is at worst, tolerable.
So, if it's all fluff and nonsense, what are we really arguing about here, anyway?
Beats me- I still don't know why the West even pretends to be at odds with Putin/Medvedev's Russia- since the former's establishment is firmly in bed with the latter.


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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
So... those evil, Satanic CAPITALISTS are still propping up the Russian economy, and everyone who can do better elsewhere are still leaving.
They are steering Russia toward a third world existence is what they are doing. Even some perceptive Russians today also know that Russia cannot possibly succeed with an economy that is solely based on natural resources. Other potentially lucrative economic fields are being totally ignored.

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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
If I were there, I would be pushing for improvements in infrastructure and production, and breaking up the Collective Farms... instead of adventurous little wars to beat up ex-vassal states that seem to be getting too friendly with the US.
Collective farms? You're a riot. Yes let's put the country of 140 million back onto individual peasant farming, never mind the fact that this kind of farming went out of style in the US and every other industrialized country decades ago. One word, agribusiness. Agribusiness is essentially what Marx envisioned for socialism, assuming the enterprise were brought under state control. The Soviet system never managed to create this kind of property out of collective farms.
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Old 23 Aug 09, 00:30
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And we were making such progress...

Individual peasant farming is not the only alternative to co-ops. Ah, nevermind, its like explaining a movie like As Good As It Gets to the Marques De Sade.
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