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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Best Games in History > Real Time Strategy Games

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Real Time Strategy Games Discussion of all strategy games that use a Real-Time system, from the typical RTS games to the hardcore wargames.

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  #1  
Old 30 Aug 17, 06:38
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Brief guide to modern-era naval games

By 'modern era' I mean from the Cold War to the present day, where we can have fun shooting off missiles as well as shells.
I currently own the following games and am making a few brief comments primarliy to help newcomers decide what to buy, so if anybody else wants to add any comments in this thread go ahead..

Command:Modern Air and Naval Operations (CMANO)
This big highly-detailed baby cost me 60 GB pounds (77 US dollars) and will be okay when/if they iron out some nasty bugs/glitches; for example you have to micromanage your many vessels by giving them course corrections to open their CIWS gun firing arcs or else they sail on like sitting ducks.
It's not 3D, you only see units on a flat top-down map full of various weapon, sonar and radar range rings etc in different colours.
There are two addon games for it (Northern Inferno and Chains of Command) which have the same glitches.

Cold Waters
A goodlooking easy-on-the-eye 3D submarine simulator, so if you've got the patience to slowly stalk enemy contacts on the sonar and radar screens it's your cup of tea.

Dangerous Waters
This is a submarine AND surface ship and air 3D simulator, your ship is the dear old US Perry frigate, it's fun as long as you remember the CIWS gun is on the rear decking and therefore can't engage incoming anti-ship missiles on the bows unless you order a sharp turn to open its firing arc.
Oh, and you have to assign targets to its SAM's and Harpoons yourself or they won't fire.
Overall the game is fine if you like micromanaging.

Naval War:Arctic Circle
Nice user-friendly interface and adequate 3D graphics, but overall the game is slightly too arcadey and over-simplified, plus I should mention it keeps crashing on me.

Fleet Command
An old game but still enjoyable if you don't mind the not-so-hot 3D graphics and the odd glitch etc.

Are there any others I've overlooked?
For example are the old Harpoon series still around?

Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 30 Aug 17 at 07:00..
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  #2  
Old 30 Aug 17, 07:38
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Dangerous Waters was 2005...?
I was looking for a good naval sim...but that seems a little old
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  #3  
Old 30 Aug 17, 09:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
Dangerous Waters was 2005...?
I was looking for a good naval sim...but that seems a little old
I've been computer gaming for over 30 years, and believe me some old stuff is still much better than some new stuff..
For example Dangerous Waters has still got a big active following, check out the DW section at the Subsim forum-
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php

My only beef with the game is that you have to micromanage your own human-controlled ship all the time, manually telling it which specific targets you want it to engage, otherwise it won't fire SAM's and Harpoons; however it will auto-fire its CIWS gatling.
Micromanaging is fine in small scenarios, but in bigger scens if you've got several enemy ships all launching anti-ship missiles at you at 1000 mph, it becomes a bit of a frantic clickfest to target them with your SAMs before they hit you.
The good news is that friendly computer-controlled vessels WILL defend themselves without you having to tell them, so a neat trick is to try to use them as a screen by keeping them between your ship and the enemy so they get clobbered first instead of you hehe..
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Old 30 Aug 17, 10:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Are there any others I've overlooked?
For example are the old Harpoon series still around?
Harpoon is still around and is sold by MatrixGames.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=872

Free demos for both Harpoon Classic and Harpoon3 are available. To see the difference between the two games, see:

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  #5  
Old 30 Aug 17, 13:05
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Despite its age Harpoon is the most up to date and one of the best Tactical Naval Warfare. Forgetting Harpoon makes that list pedestrian.

When it comes to DW, it is based on a Navy training tool. So, it might feel overwhelming for landlubber unaware of Naval procedure and used to play Arcadish games like Cold Waters, SSN or Fleet Command. Yet it remains an excellent sim.
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Old 30 Aug 17, 20:10
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lol as I read the first post I KNEW someone had already mentioned Harpoon
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Old 31 Aug 17, 11:15
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what about multi-player? are their a lot of MP games/players?
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Old 31 Aug 17, 12:21
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Harpoon, NWAC, Dangerous Waters, and Fleet Command have multi-player capability.

As far as I can see, there are few multi-player matches; primarily because everyone is busy and it is difficult to arrange battles across time zones.
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  #9  
Old 01 Sep 17, 06:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Hum View Post
Harpoon, NWAC, Dangerous Waters, and Fleet Command have multi-player capability.
As far as I can see, there are few multi-player matches; primarily because everyone is busy and it is difficult to arrange battles across time zones.
Yes that's a pity because the human brain is the most powerful weapon in the known universe, I've put in 1600 hours on the Armed Assault III ground/air warfare servers over the past couple of years playing against 2 teams of up to 40 human opponents in each, and they'll never give you an inch, you have to be on your toes every second or you're history.
I've also played several thousand PBEM Combat Mission games over the past 15 years.
I could never go back to playing against the dumb AI in any games except just for fun training purposes.
To noobs to wargaming (land/sea/air), I say - Never fear the AI, you can run rings around it!
Surely a few players of Harpoon/NWAC/DW/FC could get together to arrange multiplayer games? Let me know and I'm in..
"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter"- Ernest Hemingway

"Commander, human ships are closing in on us!"
"Evasive manoeuvre number 1 quickly or we shall not see the stars of home again!"


Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 01 Sep 17 at 06:37..
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Old 01 Sep 17, 11:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Yes that's a pity because the human brain is the most powerful weapon in the known universe, I've put in 1600 hours on the Armed Assault III ground/air warfare servers over the past couple of years playing against 2 teams of up to 40 human opponents in each, and they'll never give you an inch, you have to be on your toes every second or you're history.
I've also played several thousand PBEM Combat Mission games over the past 15 years.
I could never go back to playing against the dumb AI in any games except just for fun training purposes.
To noobs to wargaming (land/sea/air), I say - Never fear the AI, you can run rings around it!
Surely a few players of Harpoon/NWAC/DW/FC could get together to arrange multiplayer games? Let me know and I'm in..
"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter"- Ernest Hemingway

"Commander, human ships are closing in on us!"
"Evasive manoeuvre number 1 quickly or we shall not see the stars of home again!"

exactly....I agree....that's why I usually don't get a game without MP available
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Old 01 Sep 17, 11:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Yes that's a pity because the human brain is the most powerful weapon in the known universe, I've put in 1600 hours on the Armed Assault III ground/air warfare servers over the past couple of years playing against 2 teams of up to 40 human opponents in each, and they'll never give you an inch, you have to be on your toes every second or you're history.
I've also played several thousand PBEM Combat Mission games over the past 15 years.
I could never go back to playing against the dumb AI in any games except just for fun training purposes.
To noobs to wargaming (land/sea/air), I say - Never fear the AI, you can run rings around it!
Surely a few players of Harpoon/NWAC/DW/FC could get together to arrange multiplayer games? Let me know and I'm in..
"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter"- Ernest Hemingway

"Commander, human ships are closing in on us!"
"Evasive manoeuvre number 1 quickly or we shall not see the stars of home again!"

So much inconsistency. Your message POS, is incongruent

In one hand, you don't want to micromanage so you use the AI to micromanage for you, and in the other hand, the AI is too stupid to use as an opponent, but do you remember how the AI beat you up and defeated you in Dangerous Water?
Then, I quote what you wrote on SUBSIM.COM "The answer is that I often like to play Command-level wargames, that is to say I like to be in command of a number of tanks or infantry squads or ships at the same time. Obviously they can't all be micromanaged in the heat of combat, but the fun lies in ordering them around into positions from where they can deliver devastating blows to the enemy on their own initiative without having to be told what to do" http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=233035&page=3

And that coming from the guys that said on subsim: "Remember mate, if someone is blessed with a magnificent tactical brain (as I am), that superhuman talent extends into land, air AND naval combat"
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...39#post2509939
Are you going to post about something else than your beautiful self?
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Old 02 Sep 17, 04:37
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Originally Posted by Gunnyhighway View Post
So much inconsistency. Your message POS, is incongruent..
Sorry mate I don't know what 'incongruent' is, otherwise I'd try dabbing calamine lotion on it to see if it clears up. Perhaps you've got me mixed up with somebody else, or perhaps you misunderstood my posts.
Anyway here are my 'credentials', this is one of a number of wargame ladders I've topped over the past 15 years against deadly human opponents, so no way hozay would I ever have any trouble trashing dumb AI units and neither would anybody else..



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Old 02 Sep 17, 09:01
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Sorry mate I don't know what 'incongruent' is, otherwise I'd try dabbing calamine lotion on it to see if it clears up. Perhaps you've got me mixed up with somebody else, or perhaps you misunderstood my posts.
Anyway here are my 'credentials', this is one of a number of wargame ladders I've topped over the past 15 years against deadly human opponents, so no way hozay would I ever have any trouble trashing dumb AI units and neither would anybody else..



Dictionary:
in·con·gru·ent
adjective
adjective: incongruent
incongruous; incompatible.

Sorry mate, but you said you had a superior tactical mind. I see, the AI did not tell you!

And you still got defeated by the "Dangerous Water" AI. I hope you'll recover from that public humiliation. We can still read through your posts, the emotional disturbance it threw you in, on subsim.com! It must have been quiet an ordeal, to the point you were blaming the game conception instead of yourself. What a lesson of courage, one could think!

Besides, 74 won over 146 played is only a 50.6% of winning, not that impressive Mr. Braggart!...To vanquish without peril, you triumph without glory!...
Mickey#12th in that list, is a better tactician with a 66% rate of win, and he does not brag about it!....Or Lord Bane (FGM) #5 with a 71% of win rate, is also a much better tactician.
What?...No!...Mickey was the AI?....I rest my case, then!

Last edited by Gunnyhighway; 02 Sep 17 at 16:29..
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Old 02 Sep 17, 08:56
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Originally Posted by Gunnyhighway View Post
.../inˈkäNGɡro͝oənt,ˌinkənˈɡro͞oənt/..
Well that settles it mate, Klingon is your first language which explains why you've misunderstood my sensational posts..
The AI of any game has never given me any trouble, but if it's giving you a hard time tell us which games you play and we'll tell you how to bust its ass, no problem..

PS- Hey guys here's something I don't like about Dangerous Waters, namely there are silly "birdcages" plastered on vessels in the 3D view like below and they look bloody awful, that's my Perry in the foreground, but the Arleigh Burke in the background is cluttered up with birdcages, they're supposed to represent "location and identification uncertainty", yet the ship is only a couple of hundred yards away so there's absolutely NO uncertainty about its location and I.D.!
I've asked in the Subsim DW forum how to get rid of the birdcages on our own allied ships but the answers so far indicate you can't, unless you select the "Show Truth" option but that's no good because it removes the fog of war from the whole map and makes every enemy unit show up on the map, totally unrealistic (sniffle)..

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Old 01 Sep 17, 22:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
I could never go back to playing against the dumb AI in any games except just for fun training purposes.
To noobs to wargaming (land/sea/air), I say - Never fear the AI, you can run rings around it!
Surely a few players of Harpoon/NWAC/DW/FC could get together to arrange multiplayer games? Let me know and I'm in..
From my experience with Harpoon and NWAC MP, I think that there are a few significant obstacles.

1. Time zones
2. Time available
3. Pace
4. Servers

1. Finding an opponent in a suitable time zone can be challenging. I have played games with 2 other opponents and we were each 8 hours apart, from one another. That usually means someone is just waking up while others are going to bed.

2. Most everyone is busy with work and family. Usually, most can find an hour or two to play. Sometimes, this is even broken up into smaller segments. The problem is to find someone who is free at the same time, since most of the games are RTS and opponents are required to be online at the exact same time.

I think that this incongruent availability explains why PBEM games such as WitP, WitE, Combat Mission, etc. are so successful. Players can take all the time they need to complete their orders/turn before sending it to an opponent.

3. Most RTS games allow for time compression. However, different players can handle different paces. Some play at higher time compression than others who prefer lower compression rates or nearly real-time rates. The problem is that the rate differential may mean that the battle cannot be completed because one player runs out of time. Also, if the difference is great, one side gets frustrated staring at a screen with nothing happening and just gives up.

4. None of the games listed have dedicated online servers. This means that one opponent must also serve as the game server/host. This makes it difficult to find opponents. Also, some games are not well designed and require technical knowledge to set up the host server, such as opening ports and authorizations.

Games like World of Tanks have dedicated servers where players can easily log on, locate opponents, and play for however long they like. No muss, no fuss.

One kind fellow set up an H3 online server for over two years. It was free to play, but few took advantage of it. I suspect that they could not find opponents. I think that I was involved in all the matches that occurred on that server, since I made myself available at all hours of the day or night and would play anyone who was interested. Nearly all the matches involved arrangements and appointments made elsewhere and lots of hand-holding to get them logged into the server. We had some great games, but not as many as I would have liked.

I believe that a number of players in the PRC continue to play ANW amongst themselves, as they have contacted me for help in setting up a host server. I have not been involved, otherwise.
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