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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Orders of Battle

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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #1  
Old 24 Jul 16, 12:59
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3rd ID Cav late 80's

On or about 16 October 1986 3-7 Cav was removed from the 3rd ID orbat. On or about 16 June 1989 3-4 Cav was added to 3rd ID. In between those dates no Cav squadron appears to have been assigned to 3rd ID. Unless I am wrong.

How were the Cav functions addressed in between those dates? Anyone familiar with 3rd ID around that time? I believe the answer may lie in the Cav coming under the aviation element of the division but am not sure.
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  #2  
Old 06 Aug 16, 20:00
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Believe that it was 4th Squadron, 4th Cavalry.
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  #3  
Old 06 Aug 16, 23:51
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There was a bit of confusion around then. They wanted to link battalions in a regimental system. The problem was some Cavalry battalions were Armor, some were Infantry and some were Aviation! Then you had the Recon Battalions!

The system they set up collapsed after several years. Then you had the First Gulf War where they sent active Battalions from Germany (8th INFDIV and 3rd INFDIV) to round out CONUS divisions that should have brought their National Guard Roundout Brigades and Battalions. The 1st INFDIV, 2nd ARMDIV and 24th INFDIV were all affected. The Guard Brigades spent three months at Fort Hood without time off.

If I sound confused, I still am!

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Old 07 Aug 16, 08:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
There was a bit of confusion around then. They wanted to link battalions in a regimental system. The problem was some Cavalry battalions were Armor, some were Infantry and some were Aviation! Then you had the Recon Battalions!
That is still true, except that there are no more pure Armor and Infantry battalions, all are now Combined Arms Battalions. However, CABs can carry Infantry, Armor or Cavalry lineage, while Cavalry units can be Aviation, CABs or reconnaissance.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The system they set up collapsed after several years.
The mid-80s attempt at a regimental system collapsed for a couple of reasons- mostly because the personnel system didn't really adjust and continued to use individual replacements, and because of the reductions starting in 1989 that prevented the balance of units within each regiment. The fact that Cavalry regimental designations were used for multiple types of units was kind of irrelevant, since each regimental designation was used for only 1 type (4th Cavalry, for example, was only used for divisional cavalry organizations; 17th Cavalry was all aviation units; etc).

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Then you had the First Gulf War where they sent active Battalions from Germany (8th INFDIV and 3rd INFDIV) to round out CONUS divisions that should have brought their National Guard Roundout Brigades and Battalions. The 1st INFDIV, 2nd ARMDIV and 24th INFDIV were all affected. The Guard Brigades spent three months at Fort Hood without time off.
This is inaccurate. Two CONUS-based divisions deployed without their assigned round-out brigades: 1st Cavalry Division deployed with its two organic brigades, and with 1st Brigade, 2nd Armored Division instead of its round out, 155th Armored Brigade (MS ARNG); 24th Infantry Division deployed with its two organic brigades, and with 197th Infantry Brigade instead of its round out, 48th Infantry Brigade (GA ARNG). The 256th Infantry Brigade (LA ARNG), round out for the 5th Infantry Division, was also activated, but neither the division nor the brigade deployed.

1st Infantry Division had 2 brigades in CONUS, and one brigade forward deployed to Germany. This brigade, 3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, was inactivating, so the other forward deployed brigade in Germany, 3rd Brigade, 2nd Armored Division, deployed instead.

1st Armored Division deployed with 3 brigades from Germany, it's own 2nd and 3rd Brigades, as well as 3rd Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division. I guess this deployment was also due to ongoing inactivations of Germany based units.

The only 8th Infantry Division maneuver unit I can find deploying was 4th Battalion, 34th Armor, which deployed with 1st Brigade, 3rd Armored Division. 8th Infantry Division also deployed a Field Artillery battalion, an Engineer battalion, and an Air Defense Battery.

Thus, the round out issues only effected 1st Cavalry Division and 24th Infantry Division, and their round out brigades were replaced with CONUS units. The units deployed from Germany were not to replace round out units, but other Germany-based units that were in the process of inactivating or otherwise unready.
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  #5  
Old 07 Aug 16, 12:15
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At the time, the $1.97th Infantry Brigade was not assigned to the 24th Infantry Division, it was an independent organization. The Army also had an Armor Brigade at Fort Knox that was later stood down. The assignment of the 256th Infantry Brigade had been changed as the 5th Infantry Division had been deactivated. It had been re-assigned to the 2nd Armor Division. The 1st Cavalry was assigned the 155th Armor Brigade. There had also been assigned a number of Independent Battalions, but they did not go either. This harkens back to the days that heavy divisions had 11 combat (Armor and Infantry) battalions. For instance the first Guard Battalion to receive the Abrams was an Armor Battalion from North Carolina. Then it never saw combat and was later deleted.

The 3rd and 8th Infantry Divisions also furnished individual replacements to fill out the units sent to Desert Storm. It would seem there were a number of Regular Units that were shorthanded. The 8th INFDIV had already been deactivated but still had men and battalions in Germany.

The Regular Army did NOT want the Guard combat units with them. Strangely enough, the Arkansas Guard had an Artillery Brigade sent. The Regulars did take other Guard units like Truck Battalions. The Louisiana Guard had its Transportation Battalion activated with its Grandmother in the ranks. The 3rd Battalion 156th Infantry LANG had a Physical Therapist assigned as its Battalion Physician and he was quite upset about the activation. He would lose money if he was activated! I met him at CalCam Hospital in Sulphur as I was taking physical therapy.

The Regular Army did not want the Guard Roundout Brigades because Congress would have used them as an excuse to cut back on Regular Brigades if the Guard Brigades had shown well. That is also why they were not used in Iraqi Freedom as well and we were short on deployable units. The level of training in these brigades had never been an issue before and the Regulars had always claimed they were adequate to face the Soviets in Europe.

My suspicion was the three Guard Brigades at Fort Hood would have been used to furnish individual replacements if there would have been heavy casualties. I did not read that anywhere, it is my own personal suspicion.

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  #6  
Old 07 Aug 16, 15:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
At the time, the $1.97th Infantry Brigade was not assigned to the 24th Infantry Division, it was an independent organization.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the round out brigade, 48th Infantry Brigade GA ARNG, was replaced by 197th from FT Benning, not a Germany based unit as you stated.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
... The assignment of the 256th Infantry Brigade had been changed as the 5th Infantry Division had been deactivated. It had been re-assigned to the 2nd Armor Division.
In August 1990, 2nd AD still had 3 brigades, and 5th ID was still active. I'm showing 5th ID inactivation as November 1992.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The 1st Cavalry was assigned the 155th Armor Brigade.
Yes, it took 1st Brigade, 2nd AD instead.


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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
There had also been assigned a number of Independent Battalions, but they did not go either. This harkens back to the days that heavy divisions had 11 combat (Armor and Infantry) battalions.
Yes. "Maneuver & Firepower: The Evolution of Divisions and Separate Brigades" gives a pretty good overview of the development. Both ROAD and AOE heavy divisions had a theoretical mix of 10 or 11 maneuver battalions, although the application was never the same as the theory.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The 3rd and 8th Infantry Divisions also furnished individual replacements to fill out the units sent to Desert Storm. It would seem there were a number of Regular Units that were shorthanded. The 8th INFDIV had already been deactivated but still had men and battalions in Germany.
I'm tracking 8th ID inactivation as January 1992.


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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Regular Army did NOT want the Guard combat units with them. ... The level of training in these brigades had never been an issue before and the Regulars had always claimed they were adequate to face the Soviets in Europe.
Likely, but there were other issues, too. In a war of choice (as Desert Storm clearly was- Saddam retaining control of Kuwait would have had limited impact on the lives of most Americans) there is a different level of acceptance of risk of casualties than in an existential conflict like a potential WW3 in Europe.

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My suspicion was the three Guard Brigades at Fort Hood would have been used to furnish individual replacements if there would have been heavy casualties. I did not read that anywhere, it is my own personal suspicion.
Again, likely. Or formed and trained units as follow-on forces if required in the Middle East, or if something had kicked off in Korea.
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Old 07 Aug 16, 16:19
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....That is also why they were not used in Iraqi Freedom as well and we were short on deployable units.
Another piece of mis-information.

Elements of at least 5 infantry battalions from the ARNG (1-179 IN, 45th Brigade OK ARNG; 1-162 IN, 41st Brigade OR ARNG; and 1-124, 2-124 and 3-124 IN, 53d Brigade FL ARNG) deployed to OIF 1.
At least 81st Armor Brigade, WA ARNG, deployed to OIF 2- they relieved by brigade from the 82nd ABN.
An ARNG division HQs (42nd ID) was deployed with 6 ARNG brigades (256th Brigade LA ARNG, 116th Brigade VA ARNG, 278th ACR TN ARNG, 29th Brigade HI ARNG, 56th Brigade TX ARNG, and 155th Brigade MS ARNG) deployed to OIF 3.
48th Brigade GA ARNG and 2nd Brigade, 28th Infantry Division (PA ARNG) deployed to OIF 4.
My brigade relieved 1st BCT, 34th Infantry Division (MN ARNG) in Iraq in 2007- they'd replaced the 48th.
There are more- that is what I pulled up quickly.

Edited to fix a typo

Last edited by 82redleg; 07 Aug 16 at 19:36..
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Old 15 Sep 16, 20:50
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Originally Posted by tmcvicar View Post
On or about 16 October 1986 3-7 Cav was removed from the 3rd ID orbat. On or about 16 June 1989 3-4 Cav was added to 3rd ID. In between those dates no Cav squadron appears to have been assigned to 3rd ID. Unless I am wrong.

How were the Cav functions addressed in between those dates? Anyone familiar with 3rd ID around that time? I believe the answer may lie in the Cav coming under the aviation element of the division but am not sure.

It was redesignated 4/4th Cavalry in between its time as the 3/7th Cav and 3/4th Cav.
Note: The 4/4th Cav. would land on the $1.97 as D Troop/4th Cav

http://usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?ht...0Inf%20Div.htm

Last edited by shrike6; 15 Sep 16 at 22:31..
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Old 22 Sep 16, 19:01
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In between those years the 3rd ID Divisional Cavalry Squadron was the 4th Squadron 4th Cavalry based at Schweinfurt - Ledward Barracks. Their border patrols were run out of Camp Harris in Coburg GE.

IIRC sometime around 1986 that Squadron converted to the J-Series TOE, giving up their tanks for the M3 CFV.
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