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-   -   Effect of Religion (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175717)

Moulin 04 Feb 17 11:37

Effect of Religion
 
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case

Marmat 04 Feb 17 17:09

"The Missionary"?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin (Post 3324062)
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case

I'm not sure which "The Missionary" you're referring to, I can only assume it's NOT the Michael Palin movie?

"The Mission", 1986, with De Niro & Irons perhaps?

Here's a little known movie based on a well received historical novel that you might find of interest. "Black Robe" is low budget, and a bit cheesy at times, but worth a look all the same. It deals with the RC Church and First Nations early post-first contact i.e. 1634 in New France/North America; it's not perfect by any means, but "Black Robe" has more historically right, than it does wrong.

You may recognize Lothaire Bluteau in the title role, he's recently featured as King Charles of Francia in the series "Vikings".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Robe_(film)


Bwaha 04 Feb 17 19:10

It depends on which time period your talking about.

If your asking about the Spanish ones, it was a terrible time for the locals.

If your asking about modern times its a great thing because they really help the people.

Moulin 04 Feb 17 19:38

thanks for replies
Marmat...yes the Deniro and Irons one....Irons did a great job IMO....but I also saw Black Robe
..a really ''harsh'' life in the cold climates
Bwaha---I guess it would be the initial missionary contact, if you could call it that
..I thought maybe you guys could tell me in a more concise-quick way instead a lot of research
...I'm guessing the effects were about the 'same' in all the America's ? some good some bad?

OpanaPointer 04 Feb 17 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bwaha (Post 3324208)
It depends on which time period your talking about.

If your asking about the Spanish ones, it was a terrible time for the locals.

If your asking about modern times its a great thing because they really help the people.

http://www.marketingtofullpay.com/wp...ed-Glasses.jpg

Moulin 04 Feb 17 20:09

yes ..my mistake ..i was talking about The Mission...good call

Opana--yes, ...that could be for a lot of these threads, yes?

Bwaha 04 Feb 17 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin (Post 3324217)
thanks for replies
Marmat...yes the Deniro and Irons one....Irons did a great job IMO....but I also saw Black Robe
..a really ''harsh'' life in the cold climates
Bwaha---I guess it would be the initial missionary contact, if you could call it that
..I thought maybe you guys could tell me in a more concise-quick way instead a lot of research
...I'm guessing the effects were about the 'same' in all the America's ? some good some bad?

I'd call the initial period a total disaster for the locals, fubar'd beyond belief. Those Spanish missionaries enslaved many people. It was a bad time for the locals. They died as slaves to the catholic church. A sad moment.

But I don't go with Catholics, I spurn that sect as a evil corruption of the true gospel.

Though I did many catholic girls in my youth.


Moulin 05 Feb 17 10:14

wow! Bwaha--ha--thanks reply
I'm researching/etc the subject....I need some variety...but it will take a long time to understand the finer points
...interesting in seeing the different cultures 'collide'--and I don't mean that in a good way.....
...here's a quick question--that is one of the reasons I started this thread--
--in the movie and real life, because of the Treaty of Madrid, they wanted the Jesuits and the Guarani to move from the missions/homeland they created??! this seems incredible and ridiculous!--yet not surprising--considering humans
...and they wanted to move them so they wouldn't be in Portuguese territory or control?
...sorry I didn't ask this before....maybe I missed something in the movie about the reasons---although this is the only explanation that makes sense
...we see the colonial powers trying to forcibly move indigenous peoples from their homeland---but I've discussed this in other threads
..I thought Stonewall was into the Native American history?

MarkV 05 Feb 17 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin (Post 3324062)
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case

In the first [art of the 17th century French missionaries had some limited success amongst the Huron but a major mission to the Iroquois ended in disaster with the missionaries narrowly escaping massacre ( and the Iroquois went on to slaughter many of the Huron converts).

SmackUm 05 Feb 17 13:16

Stolen Continents: 500 Years of Conquest and Resistance in the America's by Donald Wright might interest you...
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...len_Continents
It's a bit to the left but still a good source also the Dogs of War (Spanish Mastiff) used by the Spaniards in New Spain.
The Dogs of War were used with great effect along w/guns/germs/& steel...

Marmat 05 Feb 17 13:36

Timing and the FN's ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkV (Post 3324458)
In the first [art of the 17th century French missionaries had some limited success amongst the Huron but a major mission to the Iroquois ended in disaster with the missionaries narrowly escaping massacre ( and the Iroquois went on to slaughter many of the Huron converts).

... is important, there aren't any absolutes. The French made enemies of the Iroquois Confederacy i.e. the Haudenosaunee, virtually on day one when they supported their Algonquian allies in a raid on the easternmost tribe, the Mohawk, who fought pretty much everyone; alternating periods of war and peace with the French/Canadiens were the result.

The Huron (Wendat) are Iroquoian as well, which as agrarians were more sedentary than the Algonquian hunter gathers, and as such were more accessible to the French religious orders i.e. Jusuit, Recollet, Capuchin, depending on period and location, which competed for favour, and amongst themselves for souls. The Huron had well established trade networks and were also perfectly placed as French middlemen for the fur trade, a role their hereditary enemy of the Iroquois Confederacy coveted; it was a perfect storm in the making.

Huron religious converts were allowed firearms by the Frencch, a major incentive to welcome baptism, but the close contact with the French also meant disease. As you've pointed out, the Huron were reduced, and disillusioned when the Haudenosaunee struck the Huronia homeland in 1649, they were crushed and widely dispersed, Priests captured and tortured. But the Haudenosaunee were as much affected by disease as the Huron, they maintained their numbers by attacking and absorbing other FN's; beyond the Huron they included Erie, Petun, Susquehannock etc. And they were also subject to French RC religious teachings through the peoples they absorbed. The Mohawk and Onondaga were especially susceptible to the process, eventually they were split, large groups from both emigrated to New France, to land made available for them on the shores of the St. Lawrence.

Along with the Huron and the Algonquian Anishinaabe and Abenaki, also relocated to the same area, they became known as the "Mission Indians", Seven Nations of Canada, AND the Seven Nations of The Iroquois Confederacy. They also supported French/Canadiens military endeavors as far away as the Illinois Country and Louisiana, then in the Seven Years War, and the British during the Revolution.

SmackUm 05 Feb 17 14:19

There could be a relationship between Good King Henri of Navarre's ambition to Christianize the Algonquin based tribes due to Champlain's theory that they in essential were French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_de_Champlain
He didn't have a DNA kit with him but made an observation that these people were not Asian but of European design...
The theory of Haplo Group X was far beyond his time period to comprehend but he did see similarities maybe the King believed in the story of the lost tribes of Israel ... Also the Indian in Canada's wild rugged interior stood to serve a purpose he took the traders to the beaver.
In more southern climates were agriculture was more important the Indian was deemed to be in the way...

Moulin 07 Feb 17 07:42

thanks for recommendations/etc
...sounds like humans never change--of course
what a very interesting time in human history--different cultures meeting/interacting/etc...one of my favorite subjects
..I will try to order those books today...I need a break from last 2 months of US politics!

Stonewall_Jack 07 Feb 17 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin (Post 3324062)
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case

Yes Christianity brought immense benefits to the world....to Africa, South America and North America for example...


Contrary to the viewpoint that the Spanish were all bloodthirsty criminals....I have shown here on ACG documented fact that there were positive relations between Catholic Spaniards and the locals of the Americas. Ill alawys stand by Hernan Cortes....but the jury is still out for me on Columbus.

SmackUm 08 Feb 17 12:04

Religion & War are probably intertwined into infinity.... When I first saw this thread I thought Hyperbole? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
or just cloud talk...
It reminds me of a wolf set one trap by the bait and 1,2 or 3 more surrounding it (stingers) ready to erupt out of the snow.
Usually the wolf gets stung by the stingers as it's mind is preoccupied with the bait while it circles the bait cache.
Monroe, Louisiana?.... Truth be told some lied like Louis Hennepin 1678-1680. http://www.historymuseum.ca/virtual-...epin-1678-1680


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