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-   -   Hadrian's Wall... (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179295)

Von Richter 10 Sep 17 01:33

Hadrian's Wall...
 
Giving up some spectacular new secrets...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...anda-unearthed

:salute:

Salinator 10 Sep 17 18:19

Romans fleeing from Britons? Bah!

MarkV 11 Sep 17 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salinator (Post 3402906)
Romans fleeing from Britons? Bah!

Possible - the only written histories we have of the period were written by Romans for Romans who may have been just a smidgen partial.

jf42 12 Sep 17 05:23

"lifestyle" - Pshaw!

slick_miester 12 Sep 17 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkV (Post 3402970)
Possible - the only written histories we have of the period were written by Romans for Romans who may have been just a smidgen partial.

I don't know. Tacitus struck me as pretty candid about the ferocity and martial prowess of the Brigantes, the Silures, not to mention the Iceni. They all gave the legions a fair bit of trouble.

MarkV 12 Sep 17 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by slick_miester (Post 3403403)
I don't know. Tacitus struck me as pretty candid about the ferocity and martial prowess of the Brigantes, the Silures, not to mention the Iceni. They all gave the legions a fair bit of trouble.

Of course he wasn't going to say they were push overs - what he does makes the Romans look even better - but he doesn't report any Roman defeats of regular Roman forces. The Icene massacred lots of civilians but they were quickly finished off when the Legions got organised. There were two battles involving the Brigante and the Silures close to where I live. After the second one the Roman commander in chief died at the Roman camp at Worcester but Tacitus is somewhat unrevealing about what happed to him but DOW is likely. The Roman's lost their cavalry commander at the previous one and again Tacitus was very discrete about this. So I would be cautious about how completely his accounts are to be trusted.

Salinator 12 Sep 17 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkV (Post 3403411)
Of course he wasn't going to say they were push overs - what he does makes the Romans look even better - but he doesn't report any Roman defeats of regular Roman forces. The Icene massacred lots of civilians but they were quickly finished off when the Legions got organised. There were two battles involving the Brigante and the Silures close to where I live. After the second one the Roman commander in chief died at the Roman camp at Worcester but Tacitus is somewhat unrevealing about what happed to him but DOW is likely. The Roman's lost their cavalry commander at the previous one and again Tacitus was very discrete about this. So I would be cautious about how completely his accounts are to be trusted.

Tacitus did claim that Suetonius slaughtered 80,000 Britons at Watling Street while suffering only 400 casualties himself. That doesn't paint the Britons as fierce opponents or even particularly clever.

As for defeats of regular Roman forces, he reported the rout of Legio IX Hispania at Camulodunum.

Skoblin 13 Sep 17 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salinator (Post 3403520)
As for defeats of regular Roman forces, he reported the rout of Legio IX Hispania at Camulodunum.

Legio IX? Roman milksops. Tungrii women sent them crying back to their Roman mothers at the battle of Asterix.

Von Richter 14 Sep 17 04:31


MarkV 14 Sep 17 06:17

if the swords were damaged then abandoning them makes more sense but the harness fittings - copper alloy would be relatively expensive and one assumes that they could be reused. In modern times the military in general have had a reputation for being a bit prodigal with material and it would seem had also been so in Roman times. Harness strap broken trooper? Toss it into the heap and draw a new harness set from the quartermaster"

Snowygerry 14 Sep 17 06:26

By 120 AD though it seems the "Romans" weren't the actual Romans of centuries before..

Quote:

The Garrison at Vindolanda at this time (cAD120) was made up of a combination of peoples including the 1st Cohort of Tungrians who heralded from modern day Belgium. They were joined by a detachment of Vardulli Cavalrymen from northern Spain. It is likely that the base held more than 1000 soldiers and probably many thousands more dependants including slaves and freedmen, representing one of the most multicultural and dynamic communities on the Frontier of the Roman Empire at the time.
Perhaps in a moment of crisis they dumped their Roman gear to make a getaway ?

Such a wealth of objects and nothing in the way of human remains would suggest the post was abandoned for some reason before it was overrun.

Roman practice was to destroy and burn a camp when they left, so perhaps the burned remains hid the objects now found ?

MarkV 14 Sep 17 07:01

Using troops from parts of the empire to police other parts is a common practice in successful empires down the ages. Indian and African troops policed large areas of the British Empire outside of their own homelands. Indeed between the end of the South African war and the outbreak of WW1 all those outbreaks of trouble that had required military intervention had been handled by Indian and African units. The Germans after Mons ascribed the fighting qualities of the BEF to it containing a large number of veterans from colonial wars when in fact it contained few if any with such experience. Likewise the Roman part of the Roman army was largely there to protect Rome.

Snowygerry 14 Sep 17 09:24

No doubt - but a couple of hundred "Tungrians" (The Belgian settlement Tongeren and others, derive their name from the same root ?) would easily melt into the local population if not dressed in Roman garments ?

IS riding around in US American HVs after the Iraqi army deserted them, comes to mind as a comparison.

MarkV 14 Sep 17 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowygerry (Post 3403963)
No doubt - but a couple of hundred "Tungrians" (The Belgian settlement Tongeren and others, derive their name from the same root ?) would easily melt into the local population if not dressed in Roman garments ?

Doubtful. Tribal distinctions were quite obvious in those days and some of the tribes in Britain hated each other at least as much as the Romans.

Snowygerry 14 Sep 17 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkV (Post 3403970)
(...) Tribal distinctions were quite obvious in those days .

Well I wonder -

I imagine it would be much the same as Sunni Iraqi trying to dress down as a Shiite Iraqi, or growing a beard and join IS.

Doable - as long as no one thoroughly questions your identity.

Certainly - if I had to take a company of "Belgians" down from the North of Britain under these circumstances - my first order would be to dump any piece of equipment that looks remotely Roman,

except usable swords.

Which seems to fit the evidence available.

Quote:

and some of the tribes in Britain hated each other at least as much as the Romans
That's a fact.


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