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	<title>Comments on: Author POV &#8211; Gen. Frederick Browning&#8217;s Entourage Too Far</title>
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	<description>All things military history!</description>
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		<title>By: Arrigo Velicogna</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7502</link>
		<dc:creator>Arrigo Velicogna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7502</guid>
		<description>I agree with the overall comments about overconfidence or, a better, term, overeliance on old information. The allies were experiencing the Ultra Blckout with germans relying on land communications instead than on wireless. Their big picture had dried up after normandy. They knew Bittrich was in arnhem, but not hinv retiurn strenght for the forces involved the assumed they were a non-entity. 

But the main question is if Browning &quot;giant&quot; size HQ was an asset or a liability. I agree with Peter Haclerode and mr. Wright on that issue. Dropping\landing Browning in the first wave was excessive. An airborne corps HQ was needed, but the key of the operation was airlift capacity in the first days. Browning could have been flown later. First things first, I have been trained. 

Even if the additional lift wasn&#039;t scheduled for Arnhem (a lot of lift capacity fro browning was taken from Gavin division) it could have allowed Gavin to have more artillery and more rifle strenght and push to the bridge (and defend the heights). 

Maybe is not an HQ too far (as has been pointed out a corps HQ was needed for the phase 2 exploitation), but certianly an HQ too early.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the overall comments about overconfidence or, a better, term, overeliance on old information. The allies were experiencing the Ultra Blckout with germans relying on land communications instead than on wireless. Their big picture had dried up after normandy. They knew Bittrich was in arnhem, but not hinv retiurn strenght for the forces involved the assumed they were a non-entity. </p>
<p>But the main question is if Browning &#8220;giant&#8221; size HQ was an asset or a liability. I agree with Peter Haclerode and mr. Wright on that issue. Dropping\landing Browning in the first wave was excessive. An airborne corps HQ was needed, but the key of the operation was airlift capacity in the first days. Browning could have been flown later. First things first, I have been trained. </p>
<p>Even if the additional lift wasn&#8217;t scheduled for Arnhem (a lot of lift capacity fro browning was taken from Gavin division) it could have allowed Gavin to have more artillery and more rifle strenght and push to the bridge (and defend the heights). </p>
<p>Maybe is not an HQ too far (as has been pointed out a corps HQ was needed for the phase 2 exploitation), but certianly an HQ too early.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7468</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7468</guid>
		<description>David,

I would also count Eric Bols, Gale&#039;s successor. The reason I asked which commanders you meant was that, at Brigade and Battalion level, there were excellent men in charge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>I would also count Eric Bols, Gale&#8217;s successor. The reason I asked which commanders you meant was that, at Brigade and Battalion level, there were excellent men in charge.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Largess</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7414</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Largess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7414</guid>
		<description>One of the basic pillars on which Market-Garden rested was that the German army was already half defeated.
A general under appreciation of the defensive abilities of the German army shows through in the struggle for Normandy.  From the beginning, Montgomery always underestimated the enemy&#039;s defensive capabilities.  If you really look at his plans to penetrate the enemy&#039;s positions, they only appreciate the german forward positions.  The british soldiers were constantly finding that their pre-assault planning assumed the enemies main line of defense would be breached, when they were only through the outpost defenses.  Decision in Normandy, by Carlo d&#039;Este, discusses this in great detail.
I believe the planning failure of Operation Market, may be ascribed to a similar bias.  Once you have seized the bridges, then the battle is won.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the basic pillars on which Market-Garden rested was that the German army was already half defeated.<br />
A general under appreciation of the defensive abilities of the German army shows through in the struggle for Normandy.  From the beginning, Montgomery always underestimated the enemy&#8217;s defensive capabilities.  If you really look at his plans to penetrate the enemy&#8217;s positions, they only appreciate the german forward positions.  The british soldiers were constantly finding that their pre-assault planning assumed the enemies main line of defense would be breached, when they were only through the outpost defenses.  Decision in Normandy, by Carlo d&#8217;Este, discusses this in great detail.<br />
I believe the planning failure of Operation Market, may be ascribed to a similar bias.  Once you have seized the bridges, then the battle is won.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7404</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7404</guid>
		<description>Division and Corps - Gale of the 6th Airborne Division commander and Pritchard (of the independent parachute brigade in Italy) seem to have been competant. Of course criticism was always muted (to say the least) during the war. The only giveaway is the failure to promote or heavily decorate after a battle - Browning for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Division and Corps &#8211; Gale of the 6th Airborne Division commander and Pritchard (of the independent parachute brigade in Italy) seem to have been competant. Of course criticism was always muted (to say the least) during the war. The only giveaway is the failure to promote or heavily decorate after a battle &#8211; Browning for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7399</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7399</guid>
		<description>Which para commanders do you mean: Battalion or Brigade; and to which Division are you referring?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which para commanders do you mean: Battalion or Brigade; and to which Division are you referring?</p>
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		<title>By: David Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7396</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7396</guid>
		<description>Yes - by then they had learnt their lesson about Browning - he was in disgrace. So too was the equally culpable commander of the 1st Airborne Division. It really is amazing how useless all but one of the UK para commanders were - compared with the US - lacking any firm knowledge I believe they in contrast were all better than competant?

To answer your statement - yes but only for one day or less! As soon as the two British Corps commanders crossed the Rhine about ten miles away they were supposed to revert to British command. Note that in the last month of the war Montgomery was so impressed with Ridgeway that he would trust him with anything!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; by then they had learnt their lesson about Browning &#8211; he was in disgrace. So too was the equally culpable commander of the 1st Airborne Division. It really is amazing how useless all but one of the UK para commanders were &#8211; compared with the US &#8211; lacking any firm knowledge I believe they in contrast were all better than competant?</p>
<p>To answer your statement &#8211; yes but only for one day or less! As soon as the two British Corps commanders crossed the Rhine about ten miles away they were supposed to revert to British command. Note that in the last month of the war Montgomery was so impressed with Ridgeway that he would trust him with anything!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7394</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7394</guid>
		<description>&quot;I cannot believe that the British would ever have permitted one of its elite forces to be commanded (not just controlled) by only American superiors.&quot;

Yet, Ridgway was in overall command of airborne forces on Op Varsity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I cannot believe that the British would ever have permitted one of its elite forces to be commanded (not just controlled) by only American superiors.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yet, Ridgway was in overall command of airborne forces on Op Varsity.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7390</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7390</guid>
		<description>Steve: Alas no matter what, in retrospect one thinks of Ridgeway, it would still be utterly impossible for an Allied force to operate with all of its senior echelons held by Americans. Whatever maybe the case today, in WWII things simply did not happen that way. If you want to see a clear example of this just check out the changes in the command structure in the Mediterranean at Theatre Army Group and Army level. I cannot believe that the British would ever have permitted one of its elite forces to be commanded (not just controlled) by only American superiors. Especially in view of what happened when they allowed assault troops to be put under American command at Salerno and Anzio. Now I am fully aware that Ridgeway was a towering genius compared with ineffectuals like Clarke and Lucus but that again was not known at the time.

Rank was also all important - I believe Ridgeway was just a major-general at the time, one below Browning and two below Brereton.

Actually I suspect that this whole debate on the corps commander is moot - in view of the general failure of communications whoever it was could probably do nothing in the critical early days and would have been over-ridden by the air marshals and generals in the planning stage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve: Alas no matter what, in retrospect one thinks of Ridgeway, it would still be utterly impossible for an Allied force to operate with all of its senior echelons held by Americans. Whatever maybe the case today, in WWII things simply did not happen that way. If you want to see a clear example of this just check out the changes in the command structure in the Mediterranean at Theatre Army Group and Army level. I cannot believe that the British would ever have permitted one of its elite forces to be commanded (not just controlled) by only American superiors. Especially in view of what happened when they allowed assault troops to be put under American command at Salerno and Anzio. Now I am fully aware that Ridgeway was a towering genius compared with ineffectuals like Clarke and Lucus but that again was not known at the time.</p>
<p>Rank was also all important &#8211; I believe Ridgeway was just a major-general at the time, one below Browning and two below Brereton.</p>
<p>Actually I suspect that this whole debate on the corps commander is moot &#8211; in view of the general failure of communications whoever it was could probably do nothing in the critical early days and would have been over-ridden by the air marshals and generals in the planning stage.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7384</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7384</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Mr Illies about the over-confidence of the Allies. Montgomery, in particular, thought he had this one ‘in the bag’. Strangely, it was Browning who thought Monty was going a ‘bridge too far’, yet he (Browning) was quite happy to dismiss out of hand the intelligence that he received about the German presence in and around Arnhem.

The influential person who would have known about Ridgway’s superior leadership qualities was Brereton, who, after some politicking by Browning, had slated Ridgway for command of Linnet II, the successor to Market. It was only when Browning threatened to resign that further discussions took place and he was retained in command, but of a British/Polish operation (Comet). Browning had no field experience, prior to Holland. He left the 1st Airborne Division before it went to North Africa. Although he was parachute and glider trained, it still remains the fact that his experience was administrative. Ridgway was time-served in Sicily, Normandy and the Ardennes. However, when Market was put on the table, Brereton appointed Browning as ground commander, since he saw it as an extension of Linnet II. I have not read anywhere of the ‘rule’ to alternate nationalities. It was, in my opinion, a huge mistake to appoint Browning. 

I will concur on the plan to land away from the bridges. This is one of the ‘failures’ which has been discussed at length. 

Browning for Brereton and Ridgway as FAAA Deputy. Again, my opinion is that if it had happened, the roles should have been reversed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Mr Illies about the over-confidence of the Allies. Montgomery, in particular, thought he had this one ‘in the bag’. Strangely, it was Browning who thought Monty was going a ‘bridge too far’, yet he (Browning) was quite happy to dismiss out of hand the intelligence that he received about the German presence in and around Arnhem.</p>
<p>The influential person who would have known about Ridgway’s superior leadership qualities was Brereton, who, after some politicking by Browning, had slated Ridgway for command of Linnet II, the successor to Market. It was only when Browning threatened to resign that further discussions took place and he was retained in command, but of a British/Polish operation (Comet). Browning had no field experience, prior to Holland. He left the 1st Airborne Division before it went to North Africa. Although he was parachute and glider trained, it still remains the fact that his experience was administrative. Ridgway was time-served in Sicily, Normandy and the Ardennes. However, when Market was put on the table, Brereton appointed Browning as ground commander, since he saw it as an extension of Linnet II. I have not read anywhere of the ‘rule’ to alternate nationalities. It was, in my opinion, a huge mistake to appoint Browning. </p>
<p>I will concur on the plan to land away from the bridges. This is one of the ‘failures’ which has been discussed at length. </p>
<p>Browning for Brereton and Ridgway as FAAA Deputy. Again, my opinion is that if it had happened, the roles should have been reversed.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.armchairgeneral.com/author-pov-gen-frederick-brownings-entourage-too-far.htm/comment-page-1#comment-7348</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.armchairgeneral.com/?p=5682#comment-7348</guid>
		<description>I very much doubt if the Allies were, as has been suggested, &#039;over-confident&#039;. Had they been there would not have assigned so much strength to checking a German attack from the east and more to taking the bridges, notably that at Nijmegan. And in all truth had the two SS Panzer divisions shifted even more of their strength (especially their trucks) to Germany or to the front, Arnhem would probably have suceeded. What they did believe was that the Germans would not be able to react fast enought to block the advance - in other words the Blitzkrieg/Shock and Awe theories. 

Also it is a little presumptuous to assume that people would have known that Ridgeway was a better corps commander than Browning. The latter had faults, but he had been the administrative commander of the two division British airborne corps for over a year. Both had led airborne divisions in action. The &#039;pissing in the woods&#039; episode is questionable - it was written at the time not after, but there is the suggestion that some PR flak was writing it to make hime seem comparable to Patton, who seems to have flooded half of Italy and France!  However the  whole issue of his replacement is utterly moot in any case as the &#039;rule&#039; in combined operations was that nationalities alternated by level of command. So you had the American Brereton as army, then the British Browning as corps commanders.

Which does touch on one very major issue; many (I have to admit myself) feel that the critical failure was to bow to the airforce demands for &#039;safe&#039; airdrop zones over the army demand for &#039;close&#039; ones. This was particularly acute at Nijmegan where the drops were even further away than they were at Arnhem. It also seems (though the evidence is inconclusive) that it was the airforces that voted against &#039;coup-de-main&#039; glider landings onto the bridges as was done In Normandy. I have always wondered what would have happened if Browning had replaced Brereton (who I understand had a very mixed war record) with Ridgeway taking his place.

But that would never have happened because neither the Army Air Corps or the Royal Air Force would have allowed its squadrons to be commanded by an British or American Army general! 

So rather cynically I suspect that Gerald&#039;s comment about political arena(in the sense of politicians) is much more applicable to the politics of generals and their enormous egos&#039;s. So the lesson I would see from the battle is that the good of soldiers and nations must never be subordinated to the wishes of the military services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much doubt if the Allies were, as has been suggested, &#8216;over-confident&#8217;. Had they been there would not have assigned so much strength to checking a German attack from the east and more to taking the bridges, notably that at Nijmegan. And in all truth had the two SS Panzer divisions shifted even more of their strength (especially their trucks) to Germany or to the front, Arnhem would probably have suceeded. What they did believe was that the Germans would not be able to react fast enought to block the advance &#8211; in other words the Blitzkrieg/Shock and Awe theories. </p>
<p>Also it is a little presumptuous to assume that people would have known that Ridgeway was a better corps commander than Browning. The latter had faults, but he had been the administrative commander of the two division British airborne corps for over a year. Both had led airborne divisions in action. The &#8216;pissing in the woods&#8217; episode is questionable &#8211; it was written at the time not after, but there is the suggestion that some PR flak was writing it to make hime seem comparable to Patton, who seems to have flooded half of Italy and France!  However the  whole issue of his replacement is utterly moot in any case as the &#8216;rule&#8217; in combined operations was that nationalities alternated by level of command. So you had the American Brereton as army, then the British Browning as corps commanders.</p>
<p>Which does touch on one very major issue; many (I have to admit myself) feel that the critical failure was to bow to the airforce demands for &#8217;safe&#8217; airdrop zones over the army demand for &#8216;close&#8217; ones. This was particularly acute at Nijmegan where the drops were even further away than they were at Arnhem. It also seems (though the evidence is inconclusive) that it was the airforces that voted against &#8216;coup-de-main&#8217; glider landings onto the bridges as was done In Normandy. I have always wondered what would have happened if Browning had replaced Brereton (who I understand had a very mixed war record) with Ridgeway taking his place.</p>
<p>But that would never have happened because neither the Army Air Corps or the Royal Air Force would have allowed its squadrons to be commanded by an British or American Army general! </p>
<p>So rather cynically I suspect that Gerald&#8217;s comment about political arena(in the sense of politicians) is much more applicable to the politics of generals and their enormous egos&#8217;s. So the lesson I would see from the battle is that the good of soldiers and nations must never be subordinated to the wishes of the military services.</p>
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